Quick outflanking march clarification

plewis66 · Post by **plewis66** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:00 pm

Outflanking marches restrictions p. 144.

There seems to be no restriction against a commander from the main force taking BG's from an allied contingent on an outflanking march. Is this correct?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:02 pm

3rd bullete says an allied general can only take troops from his own allied contigent and must take his whole contigent.

I am guessing this means

no since the allied forces have to stick with their own general.

Makes sense since who knows how many allied troops can even speak the language of main army?

I think the typical allied general is the only one who can control the allied forces applies here.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:08 pm

My immediate reaction was 'no' - but on re-reading the section I see why you've raised your query.

But since all flank marching BGs must be deployed within command range of their commander, and an allied BG ignores other commanders, I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

But you'd need an answer from an Author to be 100% certain.

Pete

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:08 pm

By the letter of the rules there is no restriction on an non-allied general taking allied BGs. However I would be surprised if an umpired didn't rule against it - this should probably be added to the FAQ.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:23 pm

petedalby wrote:But since all flank marching BGs must be deployed within command range of their commander, and an allied BG ignores other commanders, I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Pete

So it appears the allied troops can go on the flank march but if they can't move to range of their commander in their move on then they can't come on, at least not that turn. Can a commander drop by later to pick them up?

Interestingly, they don't need to be in command range if they are driven back.

Sounds like a good way to strand some BGs off board.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:42 pm

I still say they cant go on the flank march since the entire allied contigent has to be with the allied commander to make a flnak march.

I find the risk of not arriving or arriving too late makes flank marches not worth the risk, but to each their own.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:06 pm

The answer to the question is yes you can send a non-allied commander with allied troops on a flank march.

Deadtorius' point is a red herring as that rule talks about when an allied commander goes on a flank march, that is when the flank march can only be allied troops and must be the whole contingent.

However, there are good reasons why you wouldn't want to do this - the need for the flank marching BGs to end their first move with command range is one.

plewis66 · Post by **plewis66** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:05 pm

Thanks guys.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:26 pm

I myself raised this query ages ago.

The authors answered as per Nik above - i.e. it is possibly cheesy, but the potential repercussions should prevent a player gaining an advantage out of this.

Mainly that the only advantage to be gained is using an FC to bring them on, but the allied general has to end up in command distance and since this is likely to be 4" (otherwise why bother...) then he must be fairly vulnerable to enemy troops whilst waiting for his "lads" to turn up.

Evamike · Post by **Evamike** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:39 pm

Just picked up on this tread and having been thinking of doing a flank march for the first time managed to read the rules relating to them. My follow on question is. If you use an allied command for the flank march it says that his whole command must flank march, but earlier it said a maximum of three Bg's on a flank march which takes priority if the allied command has four Bg's or can he then not do a flank march?
Cheers Mike.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:43 pm

He cannot flank march.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:45 pm

Evamike wrote: if the allied command has four Bg's or can he then not do a flank march?
Cheers Mike.

I think he can with 3 BGs but the 4th BG can neither flank march nor be deployed so can't participate in the battle. I think it's 2 Attrition Points you are at no risk of losing.

Mike

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:49 pm

As you must deploy all the BGs apart from those in ambush or on a flank march I do not believe you can choose not to deploy BGs nor just ignore one for FM purposes. Therefore, to flank march an ally-commander you can only do so if there are 3 or fewer allied BGs.

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:56 pm

IF you want to flank march and ally it needs to be 3BG or less. If its 4 its too large to go and has to be deployed, and can't all go on it. Just too big. If you want to do that desing the army for it.

As for the other question feel free to try it - boy would that flnak march be vulnerable. If you pull off the risky manouvre then well done you - take a FOG medal.

Si

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:27 pm

This may require a separate string, but what is the opinion on using flank marches?

All the time, once in a while, never??

Just curious. I have tried them a couple times; but the way I roll it is always a real threat that they will never show

Also; if your break point is 12 for instance and you lose 3 BG for 6 points and the 3 BG's on flank march haven't shown up yet, are you beaten?

John

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:43 am

As near as I can find, page 37, only those battle groups that are straggling add to your army attrition points and then only 1 point for straggling. So I would guess in a worst situation of 3 off table stragglers and 3 units lost you would have 9 attrition points, close but still in the fight.

As for using flank marches, never tried it. I prefer to know that my troops are available when I need them. Not sure my lousy die rolling skills will save the day for me on that one.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:29 am

deadtorius wrote:As near as I can find, page 37, only those battle groups that are straggling add to your army attrition points and then only 1 point for straggling. So I would guess in a worst situation of 3 off table stragglers and 3 units lost you would have 9 attrition points, close but still in the fight.

And "straggling" does not mean "has not arrived yet". BGs only count as straggling if the flank march has arrived but they failed their straggling test. You would be extremely unlucky to have more than 1 BG fail its straggling test.

recharge · Post by **recharge** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:34 am

So units that have not arrived, do not count at all?

Just want to be sure we figure this correctly

John

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:44 am

recharge wrote:So units that have not arrived, do not count at all?

Just want to be sure we figure this correctly

John

They do not count as attrition points. They do count towards the total number of BGs in the army (against which other attrition points are compared).

To be crystal clear:

A flank march that has not yet arrived has no effect on the break point of the army.

It neither counts as attrition points, nor reduces the number of attrition points required to break the army.

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:41 pm

As for using them ...

In a few hundred games I have only done 3. 2 were very effective the other one got toasted as it arrived. I do think that if you are going to use them you need to give the army desing some serious thought. I designed a Pecheneg for this and a classical Indian as well. Those two worked. The one that failed awas not designed with a flank march in mind and came a cropper as a result.

So to me they are effective as part of a master plan but not so effective as an ad hoc decision.

Si