Exploiting peace offers

[poesel71]

TL;DR: if you offer peace any attack - successful or not - should automatically discontinue that offer.

Problem is that if you offer peace the other side might attack during that offer and then accept the peace. Thus keeping the province and having the 10 year peace shield.
During the offer you cannot take it back so you are the prisoner of you own offer.
The AI pulled that stunt now twice on me and it is a bit annoying.

[desertedfox]

So if your suggestion was implemented, lets look at this scenario.

You desperately need peace (due to other factors such as multiple enemies etc) and the % chance is quite good. Thus you offer peace, but the recipient attacks you (no surprise he is winning). The offer is cancelled.

Now you are under more pressure from enemies, you offer peace again, he attacks again, cancelling peace offer....AGAIN.......and so on and so on and so on and so on.

You might want to rethink your suggestion.

[poesel71]

If the attacker is continuing to attack you it seems he doesn't want to have peace.
IME (and I've been there vs the AI) the attacker won't take a peace offer in this situation anyway.

[desertedfox]

You have just contradicted yourself in that last post.

You stated that TWICE the opponent attacked you in the same turn you sent off the peace proposal, the when he received the peace offer the next turn, he accepted the peace offer.

This would make your next post, contradictory.

Post #1.
Problem is that if you offer peace the other side might attack during that offer and then accept the peace
The AI pulled that stunt now twice on me and it is a bit annoying.

Post #2.
IME (and I've been there vs the AI) the attacker won't take a peace offer in this situation anyway.

Okay so having reread your post, I take it you mean if the AI is winning. That's not entirely correct. There are other factors that determine the AI's attitude towards your war, such as is he at war with other nations, lack of money, manpower or metal, war-weariness, is his decadence getting out of control. There are most likely other reasons as well, that is all I could come up with quickly.

I have 842 hours clocked on this game on Steam. Thus it would be fair to say I have a little experience on the game and the system.

Knowing that an attack might occur the turn you send a peace proposal you have to time it correctly and if possible position your armies accordingly if at all possible.

Also, have you ever given attack orders, conquered a region or two and received a peace offer which you accepted? It's a 2-way mirror.

I have already given an example which renders your proposal obsolete, as peace may never be obtained or at least unnecessarily delayed. Also have in mind for your suggestion that if you gave a peace proposal that you would not be able to issue any attack orders against him as well.

[poesel71]

Ok, I have not been totally precise but I don't think I have contradicted myself.

Situation 1: the AI attacks & besieges me and is clearly winning. I offer peace in the hope he takes it before the siege is over.
The AI takes the city and then accepts the peace. That is annoying but ok. If the attack had cancelled the peace offer I or it could have made it again on that turn leaving both the option to continue the war or end it.
Same outcome in both cases.

Situation 2: I attack the AI and I am clearly winning. I take one province and offer peace. Two turns later the AI does a sneak attack on another of my provinces, wins it and accepts the peace.
I'm not happy with what the AI did but the move itself is quite clever and I should have prepared for it. But now I'm bound by the 10 turn peace and can do nothing.
If the attack had canceled the peace offer I could and would have continued the war.

I'm not sure if this is a misunderstanding but I didn't propose that offering peace would bar yourself from attacking. The attack would just cancel the offer.
And I'm well aware that this cuts both ways depending on which side of the spear you stand.

This proposal would make the game a bit more realistical IMHO because imagine in real life: ' oh sorry my king, we offered peace and although they destroyed our city we can't do nothing'. I really can't see the king nodding 'ah, ok. That sucks.'

[desertedfox]

Okay, let's break it down.

I agree the current situation is not perfect, but it would need a better system to replace it. Also, players should be encouraged to air things they believe are wrong with the game.

That is how we now have a better combat system involving calvary.

So we look at your system.

Side A offers peace. Now I know you quote "I didn't propose that offering peace would bar yourself from attacking. The attack would just cancel the offer."

So what is the point of selecting a Peace offer if you also choose to attack the enemy in the same turn, which in effect cancels out the Peace offer? There is no point, just attack him, as any Peace off will be auto cancelled.

back to the Peace offering.

Side A. Offers peace, and of course orders NO attacks against that enemy, even though you might have wanted to attack him, but could not, why, because you made a peace offer.

Side B. Three options.

1. He didn't plan any attacks against Side A and is free to accept or reject the Peace Offer. (This is also how the current system works). There is no issues form this option.

2. He attacks you regardless cancelling the peace offer. Now lets, for instance, say he would NOT have accepted the peace offer anyway, then it makes no difference to the current game system. except Side A missed the opportunity
to order an attack. So we have a NEGATIVE impact on the current system.

That's -1 score.

3. He attacks you regardless cancelling the Peace offering. Now let's say this time he would have accepted the peace offering. Now there are TWO Negatives. Side A missed the opportunity to order an attack AND the Peace offer he was wanting was cancelled.

That's -2 score

it doesn't matter in the above example if Side B's attack/s were successful or not, so we can discount that from the exercise. Because the success or failure of the attacks would be the same in the current system and in the one you have proposed.


So we get rid of the current system eliminating the annoying peace offer with the possibility of losing a region or two.

That is a +1 for your proposal.

Against this "benefit" we have 3 negative effects (-3 score) which in my opinion are all worse than the one negative effect of the current system.

[poesel71]

Just noticed that our discussion is quite moot since the next update will have quite heavy changes in the diplomacy section. IIRC the peace settling mechanics are much more fine grained. Both parties will have to agree upon which province belongs to whom after the peace. No such surprises anymore.

[lostangelonline]

I can confirm the next diplomacy update will fix the issue poesel71 was complaining about (a valid point, as I myself was annoyed a few times by border changes after I sent the peace proposal; both as a defender and attacker) and introduce zero negative effects (desertedfox's valid point, as I myself am against making any changes that make the game less realistic). After update, even if the enemy conquers more of your regions by throwing all his armies in a vulnerable position but secured by imminent peace, the conquered regions will revert back to defender as they were not included in the accepted peace deal.

[rilos]

the opponent attacked you in the same turn you sent off the peace proposal, the when he received the peace offer the next turn, he accepted the peace offer.

According to desertedfox, all units need to finish movement before next turn and phase of calculation can begin. If so, then the solution that poesel71 suggested will fail as desertedfox noted, because it require the AI to know what it going todo next turn and adjust its moves accordingly.

I can confirm the next diplomacy update will fix the issue poesel71 was complaining about

How?

[poesel71]

If you bought the game on Steam you can take part in the Beta.
Right click on the game and then somewhere in the properties you can switch to the Beta. One short download later you have the Beta version.
You can go back to normal any time but you cannot have both at the same time.

[eddieballgame]

If you bought the game on Steam you can take part in the Beta.
Right click on the game and then somewhere in the properties you can switch to the Beta. One short download later you have the Beta version.
You can go back to normal any time but you cannot have both at the same time.

Also, if you bought the game via Slitherene ( always the best optiom ); you can also participate in the Beta via the Steam version per the, available, 'key'.