Sandstorm - Tobruk: No attacking from top of cliffs?

[dumb_user]

I can't attack enemy units when I am at a cliff top and they are at the bottom. Don't really understand why, but ok. Not ok: Those enemy units can attack me! Shouldn't firing upwards not be more difficult than downwards? In my opinion either both sides should be able to attack or no one. (Looking forward to all the "I beg to differ" comments ...)

[bru888]

The answer is probably "escarpment." Those are the brown edges along hexsides:

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Notice how I cannot attack any of those units below me (i.e., across escarpments):

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And they cannot attack me except that artillery can be used to "reach the heights":

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After which I get attacked from landward but never by the enemy unit in the village below:

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That's pretty much the rule with escarpments: No go except by artillery fire and aerial units.

[bru888]

Now, anticipating perhaps your next question (and because it caught my eye as we are dealing with a similar situation in the studio), an open query. Where is this dealt with?

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I've been through the scenario in the editor twice, from top to bottom, and I cannot find any trigger that addresses that objective:

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Perhaps if Bebro notices this thread, he would care to comment. Or if one of our resident eggheads can find it, he will win a prize of adoring admiration from me.

[bru888]

Okay, I did find why it has not been an issue. Capturing Agedabia turns off that objective early on:

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Apparently the author meant "Prevent the loss of Italian units in the early going; but it will be okay to expend them later."

Even so, there is no mechanism for failing that objective as proven here by the deliberate sacrifice of some paisanos prior to capturing Agedabia:

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Strange programming.

[GabeKnight]

Okay, I did find why it has not been an issue. Capturing Agedabia turns off that objective early on:
Apparently the author meant "Prevent the loss of Italian units in the early going; but it will be okay to expend them later."
Even so, there is no mechanism for failing that objective as proven here by the deliberate sacrifice of some paisanos prior to capturing Agedabia:
Strange programming.

Yep, I did find the same thing during beta, but obviously it seemed too "unlikely to happen" to be included into the triggers by Uran.

[dumb_user]

You are mixing two of my posts here, the one about the cliffs/escarpments and the one about the secondary targets.
Regarding the escarpments: I was definitely shot at by the bunker in El Agheila. Do bunkers count as artillery?

[GabeKnight]

I was definitely shot at by the bunker in El Agheila. Do bunkers count as artillery?

Yes, kind of. They have a range=1 setting.

[bru888]

This is an interesting point. We are saying a bunker can attack across escarpment? My guess on this is that a bunker's attack does not depend upon implied movement whereas with mobile units, it does. That's not saying it's right; that is saying it's a quirk.

[GabeKnight]

That was also brought up in beta. Yeah, I think it was a similar problem as with my armoured train. If not for that range setting the unit can only attack into territory it can move into. Same problem with structures, I guess. And too much hassle to reprogram parts of the game's mechanic just for that.

[terminator]

This is an interesting point. We are saying a bunker can attack across escarpment? My guess on this is that a bunker's attack does not depend upon implied movement whereas with mobile units, it does. That's not saying it's right; that is saying it's a quirk.

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[KarisFraMauro]

Interesting. I remember trying Sandstorm a few months back and giving up in frustration because tons of my units were mysteriously unable to attack. At the time I speculated it was connected to desert terrain but after reading this I may revisit the issue. Wish it had been made more clear first time around though.

[bru888]

Interesting. I remember trying Sandstorm a few months back and giving up in frustration because tons of my units were mysteriously unable to attack. At the time I speculated it was connected to desert terrain but after reading this I may revisit the issue. Wish it had been made more clear first time around though.

Like a popup message along the lines of "Attack prevented by escarpment"? I'm of two minds about that. While it would be helpful, I fear screen clutter.

[timberwolf15]

Interesting. I remember trying Sandstorm a few months back and giving up in frustration because tons of my units were mysteriously unable to attack. At the time I speculated it was connected to desert terrain but after reading this I may revisit the issue. Wish it had been made more clear first time around though.

From my dodgy recollection what happens is that in many hexes ONLY INFANTRY can attack its not just escarpment it is real frustrating.
It is the Rough Desert Hex that is the culprit stand by for pics woo hoo !!!

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When desert maps are made this terrain choice can be used if put in one or two places not that big of a deal but if scattered all over the place vehicles - tanks etc cannot easily move through the area and or move tactically AND cannot attack this hex ...

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This Rough Desert Hex placed by itself on normal terrain is easily seen from left to right the hexes are BEACH, DESERT, and then Rough Desert

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This tank shown in the center has been clicked on notice its movement it cannot move into the Rough Desert hex next to it ... [the top right hex right next to it ...] nor can it attack into it ...

[timberwolf15]

So how does it look when the entire map is desert ..

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The hexes BELOW the text are the hexes that the text refer to - all the other hexes are desert notice the Rough Desert hex has mounds in it .. ok so no biggy just glance around right and then move accordingly ...

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Well, here is perhaps a typical desert map your fighting on glance around quickly in the heat of battle to find the rough desert hexes ...I think there are 3 or 4 of them its much more difficult then if you have a tank that is NOT in the movement range of these hexes AND you want to move it over there ya gotta figure out where all of the rough terrain hexes are ya can click on them of course to find them but then ya gotta figure out ok when my tank gets there what can it attack and how much of a bottleneck will it be in then this pic also shows and escarpment ...

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This shows an infantry unit on a Rough Terrain hex notice how its more difficult to see it which hex this is ya gotta read the info of the hex also it looks now like a desert hex or a mixture of hexes .. [this last pic here was large in size so I had to make it smaller but if ya zoom in on the map it is hard with the eye to easily tell which hex it is one must consult the text info]

[timberwolf15]

So then ya gotta click on stuff and pay close attention as to what you can attack so its aggravating

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In the heat of battle you may be just focusing on the infantry in the hex to the left but notice ya can't attack with the tank the infantry on the right ..ALSO the hex with the barbed wire in it next to the infantry on the left this hex is unmovable which you may not even be looking at it too is a rough desert hex ..

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The infantry can attack both hexes even though they are in a truck ... which means they could move into the barbed wire rough desert hex but the tank actually cannot even though ya get the same movement graphic the reason it does NOT show the infantry being able to move into this barbed wire rough terrain hex is because of movement points .. vs movement distance etc.

[timberwolf15]

Here is the barbed wire hex which is also a rough terrain the infantry can move into it and so can attack into it the graphic above showed it could not move into it but this was due to movement points on that turn ...

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Where as the tank too in the other graphic also showed it could not move into this hex and actually it cannot even when next to it ... because it is a rough desert hex so one must click all over the map or have a sharp eye to find all the rough desert hexes and attack accordingly often your tanks etc. can get bottlenecked surrounded so to speak with rough terrain hexes if your not careful .. again this also shows the tank cannot attack that infantry on the right side of screen ...

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[KarisFraMauro]

Oh good lord this is worse than I imagined. I mean in a perfect world things would be a lot more intuitive... Keep mentally comparing it to Panzer Corps and feeling Order of Battle suffers. Mind you I do have loads of fun in multiplayer, primarily naval maps. Although I find the disappearing airports in Coral Sea confusing.

[bru888]

Oh good lord this is worse than I imagined. I mean in a perfect world things would be a lot more intuitive... Keep mentally comparing it to Panzer Corps and feeling Order of Battle suffers. Mind you I do have loads of fun in multiplayer, primarily naval maps. Although I find the disappearing airports in Coral Sea confusing.

Granted, the indications of rough desert hexes and escarpment edges can be subtle but bear in mind that these are not bugs. I'm not sure from your post whether you think so.

Basically, what gunny is saying is, you have to be careful about rough desert terrain and escarpments (as a designer as well as a player). Here is what I set up to double-check things:

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Very simple: Only units on foot can enter rough desert terrain; tracked and wheeled vehicles cannot:

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On the other hand, NO units can cross hex sides that have escarpments (that goes for any terrain with escarpments):

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Here is the point that I think gunny is making: Escarpments are rather prominent but rough terrain can be subtle. This hex on the left end fooled me; I had to go back to look at it in the scenario editor. Yes, it is rough desert. If you are not sure, you can always click on the hex and see what terrain type it is:

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gunny was providing a public service announcement (which is appreciated) but these are not bugs. The rough desert terrain and escarpments are WAD.

[KarisFraMauro]

Thanks for all the explanations, don't worry I don't think they're bugs. Just curious design choices. Actually first thing I did after reading these posts was open the game and look through the manual. Again. Didn't see any references to any of these features but maybe I just missed them? A magic tank invulnerability terrain seems like an important thing to highlight frankly. Although there was some mention in passing of mountains interfering with tank combat.

[Erik2]

The Rough Desert terrain was added in the the Sandstorm campaign. That is why you don't see any mention of this in the original (not updated) manual.
The RD graphic is very similar to Desert. This of course may be a problem during play and was reported during the Sandstorm beta testing.
In the editor the RD is very similar to Difficult Terrain (slight colour difference). This was also reported.
I hope the devs visit these issues after they have ironed out the 8.3.6 beta issues.