Grenadiers

[Athos1660]

So I finally jumped in and succeeded in creating a brand new Le Roi Soleil custom campaign in PSCAMP with my very first unit, Foot Grenadiers, based on :

1670-1698 : small units of say 100-150 grenadiers fighting also with their 'fusil' (rifle in english?) at short/'long' range and sword in melee (+ plug bayonet?). An elite troop, rare and expensive with high experience and elan ?

A kind of 'Detached musketeers'
- Name : 'Grenadiers'
- Elan : 200
- Experience : 200
- total number of men : 100
- Shooting : 80% musket or carbine + 20% bomb ?
- Melee : 50% Bayonet + 50% Swordsmen ?

Here they are :



Now time to test them

Until now, I've only played once with them.

However, compared to Detached musketeers...



... and enemy Cavalry units, my Grenadiers may be too strong in terms of Close combat and too weak in terms of Shooting Attack.

I will try to fine tune them, maybe by increasing the total number of grenadiers to 150 and removing/reducing their Close combat capabilities ?

Then I might create mounted Grenadiers too. I'll have to check whether they were of the Hussar type or of the Dragoon one.

Any comment about these units is welcome

[Cronos09]

The bayonets give such value of Close Combat Rating. You can reduce it. I would leave the muskets 100%. As 'Bombs' come as additional weapon to the main one - 'Musket'.

[Athos1660]

The bayonets give such value of Close Combat Rating. You can reduce it.

Thx for this reply, Cronos09

I've made several tests since.

It seems that Experience/Elan also have an high impact on Close Combat Rating (more than on Shooting attack rating) :





btw I also added in my ArmyList the Grenadiers that are implemented in game and which @Paul59 spoke of (average/bombs/no musket). I haven't tested them yet. I will. Here are their (very weak) Stats :

As 'Bombs' come as additional weapon to the main one - 'Musket'.

I hesitated :
- Muskets : short range = 2 ; long range = 4
- Bombs : short range = 1

So at range 2, 3 and 4, the grenadiers use only their muskets.
And at range 1, they can use both muskets and grenades. My first idea was that a grenadier couln't shoot with his musket and throw a grenade at the same time. But I guess that one can also consider, as you think, that he can do both during a whole turn.

_______________

I made my Grenadiers an elite troop because Louis XIV's ones were elite historically. But looking at FoGR and P&S systems, high Elan/XP are very rare and often not combined with another capability. Maybe I should do the same and make my grenadiers Average, especially given the fact that they trigger a cohesion test when firing bombs.

Looking at the Grenadiers implemented in game (those I haven't tested yet), they look weak except for the capability to trigger that cohesion test at very close range, making them a unit powerful in a way but also a unit you have to take care of/protect. That's interesting.

Moreover maybe units in game are also made to have simple stats (such as 100% musket) with no need of mixing 10% of something and 20% of something else as I did. And Grenadiers may only need... grenades ?
_______________

btw I also created mounted Grenadiers based on Dragoons. Right now, they look like that :



_____

I guess my next move will be to tweak Exp/Elan to Average and remove the bayonet/swordsmen capabilities.

[Cronos09]

It seems that Experience/Elan also have an high impact on Close Combat Rating (more than on Shooting attack rating) :

You are right. I watched this too.

So at range 2, 3 and 4, the grenadiers use only their muskets.
And at range 1, they can use both muskets and grenades. My first idea was that a grenadier couln't shoot with his musket and throw a grenade at the same time. But I guess that one can also consider, as you think, that he can do both during a whole turn.

If you wish to separate one from the other, you need to write an additional script function.

[Athos1660]

So at range 2, 3 and 4, the grenadiers use only their muskets.
And at range 1, they can use both muskets and grenades. My first idea was that a grenadier couln't shoot with his musket and throw a grenade at the same time. But I guess that one can also consider, as you think, that he can do both during a whole turn.

If you wish to separate one from the other, you need to write an additional script function.

Interesting!

To know whether or not a script would be useful and to have an idea about its content, I guess we first need to know :
- to which extent bombs are actually more powerful than muskets in game
- and whether or not their combined effects at range 1 are over-powerful,
with average grenadiers.

Time to use the Scenario editor
___________

A priori, something like this...
- range 1 : x% use bombs and y% use muskets (x% + y% = 100%)
- range 2-4 : 100% use muskets (with short range vs long range)
... would be nice.

[Athos1660]

I tried to save a scenario, using the custom units I created in the Roi Soleil campaign I saved in my DOCUMENT/.../PSCAMP.
I had the error message : 'Failed to save map file, please ensure the path is writable and try again".

Do I have to copy/paste my custom units in the Vanilla files of my P&S Steamapps repertory to be able to save a Scenario ?

(edit) That's what I did. It works.

[Athos1660]

According to this...







... it seems that, at range 1 :
- the effect of bombs < effect of muskets
- bombs + muskets = OP

So I guess that the best and most simple solution could be a script setting :
- Range 3-4 : 100% musket, long range
- Range 2 : 100% musket, short range
- Range 1 : 100% bombs
= muskets at range 2-4 + a few casualties and a cohesion test at range 1
= quite a powerful unit !
= thus expensive, rare and average.
Two versions : light foot (using the 3D model in game), mounted ones (using the Dragoon model).

Any suggestion ?

[Athos1660]

Question about modding :
The manual says that troops will take a cohesion test if they are shot at by bombs/grenades. Does the probability to take a cohesion Test is the same whatever the percentage of bombs/grenades given to the Grenadiers (100%, 50%, 1%) ?

Why this question ?
If this is a case, an easy way to achieve a result similar to the script described in the post just above would be to give Detached Musketeers 100% musket and say 1% bomb :



1% bomb would have no real effect on casualties but would cause the needed cohesion test with the same probability as 100% bomb.

[Cronos09]

Question about modding :
The manual says that troops will take a cohesion test if they are shot at by bombs/grenades. Does the probability to take a cohesion Test is the same whatever the percentage of bombs/grenades given to the Grenadiers (100%, 50%, 1%) ?

It seems so. There's a block in Shooting_Logic.BSF (...\Pike & Shot Campaigns\Data\Battle\Scripts\):

Code: Select all

	// Set enemy morale modifier flag for being shot at by artillery or bombs (range calculated in case bombs in mixed unit with other shooting weapons)
	if ((IsArtillery(me) == 1) || ((GetAttrib(me, "Bombs") > 0) && (GetDistanceBetween(me, unit) <= 1)))
		{
			SetShotByArtilleryFlag(unit, GetCurrentSide(), 1);
			Log ("Shot at by Artillery flag set for unit being shot at by", unit, me);
		}

GetAttrib(me, "Bombs") > 0 means any percent number of bombs more than null. You can copy Shooting_Logic.BSF and $DEFAULT.BSF to your module at ...\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\(Your module name)\Data\Battle\Scripts\ and replace this null with any number you wish.

[Athos1660]

Question about modding :
The manual says that troops will take a cohesion test if they are shot at by bombs/grenades. Does the probability to take a cohesion Test is the same whatever the percentage of bombs/grenades given to the Grenadiers (100%, 50%, 1%) ?

It seems so. There's a block in Shooting_Logic.BSF (...\Pike & Shot Campaigns\Data\Battle\Scripts\):

Code: Select all

	// Set enemy morale modifier flag for being shot at by artillery or bombs (range calculated in case bombs in mixed unit with other shooting weapons)
	if ((IsArtillery(me) == 1) || ((GetAttrib(me, "Bombs") > 0) && (GetDistanceBetween(me, unit) <= 1)))
		{
			SetShotByArtilleryFlag(unit, GetCurrentSide(), 1);
			Log ("Shot at by Artillery flag set for unit being shot at by", unit, me);
		}

GetAttrib(me, "Bombs") > 0 means any percent number of bombs more than null. You can copy Shooting_Logic.BSF and $DEFAULT.BSF to your module at ...\PSCAMP\CAMPAIGNS\(Your module name)\Data\Battle\Scripts\ and replace this null with any number you wish.

NIce!

Thank you for your time and skills
This confirms my short testing with the scenario Editor.
So I guess 'Bombs=1%' makes a good/simple start to make any Grenadier unit in game that also have a shooting capability such as Musket.

As for suggesting Grenadier units for P&S, as I don't have the FoG book 'Duty and Glory' (for now), I can't.

A quick search on internet shows however a nice and powerful(?!) unit for late Louis XIV :
"Grenadiers à cheval" : Determined Horse, Unarmoured, Elite, Impact Pistol, Melee Pistol
Add 'Bombs=100%' (as it is not a shooting unit) and you have your Grenadiers.

Any suggestion about implementing Grenadier units in P&S is welcome

[Athos1660]

A free text about Louis XIV's Company of mounted grenadiers (in french) :
R. MASSON, La compagnie des grenadiers à cheval de Louis XIV : une culture du combat au service de la guerre de siège, 2013.

The author states unsurprisingly that, even though they were to fight mounted and on foot as well (according to the decree that created them), they were above all grenadiers, ie infantrymen, more able on foot than on horseback. Actually, they were recruited from the best infantry grenadiers who were themselves among the best infantrymen.

I guess they share that trait with dragoons (and maybe King's musketeers?).


(N. Guérard, L'art militaire ou les Exercices de Mars, 1695)
A Grenadier on foot and a mounted Grenadier, both holding a grenade.