Roman History question:

[DaiSho]

Something that I've never been able to fully grasp is some of the terminology used in the Roman army, and I'd appreciate anyone filling in the gaps of my knowledge.

In the Principate Roman army list (p11 of Legions Triumphant - Imperial Rome at War) it lists two types of cavalry open to the Roman player:

1 - Cataphractii/Contarii - Lance armed armoured cavalry; and
2 - Clibanarii - Lance armed Cataphracts.

To the casual observer one would think that the Cataphractii should be cataphracts, but clearly Clibanarii means something HEAVIER.

I'm presuming that the term Contarii comes from 'Contus' so that part makes sense to me, but the rest... well... I guess my latin is lacking .

Ian

[lawrenceg]

According to Phil Barker in the DBM/MM army list books, 4th century Roman historian Ammianus wrote:

"...the eqites catafractarii cavalry that they call clibanarii.."

So even the Romans weren't that clear on what the difference was, if any.

Catafractarii is derived from a Greek word IIRC meaning "closed in" and I believe "clibanarii" is derived from the Latin word for "oven", so it's a bit like the difference between "door" and "portal" in English.

[DaiSho]

According to Phil Barker in the DBM/MM army list books, 4th century Roman historian Ammianus wrote:

"...the eqites catafractarii cavalry that they call clibanarii.."

So even the Romans weren't that clear on what the difference was, if any.

Catafractarii is derived from a Greek word IIRC meaning "closed in" and I believe "clibanarii" is derived from the Latin word for "oven", so it's a bit like the difference between "door" and "portal" in English.

Hmm, thanks for your input lawrence, but it would make it a LOT easier if the Romans actually knew what the Romans were doing wouldn't it

Ian

[nikgaukroger]

if you look into it more deeply it gets ever more messy. For example Livy uses Equites Catafractarii for what you'd call catafracts but later writers use clibanarii and it isn't clear when or why there was a change. There is also a rference to "catafractarii clibanarii" (or something close) in the later empire and, of course, dear old Vegetius uses "catafract" for infantry armour

[DaiSho]

if you look into it more deeply it gets ever more messy. For example Livy uses Equites Catafractarii for what you'd call catafracts but later writers use clibanarii and it isn't clear when or why there was a change. There is also a rference to "catafractarii clibanarii" (or something close) in the later empire and, of course, dear old Vegetius uses "catafract" for infantry armour

Great, so basically nobody knows what the expletive is going on?

Ian

[batesmotel]

if you look into it more deeply it gets ever more messy. For example Livy uses Equites Catafractarii for what you'd call catafracts but later writers use clibanarii and it isn't clear when or why there was a change. There is also a rference to "catafractarii clibanarii" (or something close) in the later empire and, of course, dear old Vegetius uses "catafract" for infantry armour

From Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon on Perseus:

kata-phraktos , on,

A. covered, shut up, en desmôi S.Ant.958 (lyr., in old Att. form katapharktos ); ploia k. decked vessels, Th.1.10 codd., cf. Plb.1.20.13; en te tais aphraktois kai tais k. nausi IG12(1).41 (Rhodes, i B.C.); hê k. hippos cavalry clad in full armour, mailed, Plb.30.25.9, cf. Arr.Tact.4.1, 19.4; hippeis Plu. Crass.21 ; tak. coat of mail, PMagd.13.6 (iii B.C.): metaph., encased in ignorance of the future, psuchai Ion Trag.6.

So in general cataphract refers to being something being protected or guarded. A "cataphract" ship, e.g. trireme, is one which is decked and hence where the rowers are protected. The definition when applied to cavalry is essentially a derivative one, probably no more or less correct than when applied to infantry being armored or to ships.

[DaiSho]

So in general cataphract refers to being something being protected or guarded. A "cataphract" ship, e.g. trireme, is one which is decked and hence where the rowers are protected. The definition when applied to cavalry is essentially a derivative one, probably no more or less correct than when applied to infantry being armored or to ships.

It begs the question then, what did Cataphracts call themselves?

I mean, naturally the Tibetan didn't call themselves by the same name as the Saka or the Palmyrans.

Ian

[SirGarnet]

If clibanarii is derived from the word for oven it seems quite logical that such an undignified word was an informal term or derision/affection originating with those who actually experienced the gear in warm weather, just as slang terms have been used by soldiers amongst themselves through history, and that similar troops in other armies also used terms relating to baking. So I take it that Ammianus was just reporting usage in referring to with equites catafractarii that they call clibanarii.

Mike

[DaiSho]

If clibanarii is derived from the word for oven it seems quite logical that such an undignified word was an informal term or derision/affection originating with those who actually experienced the gear in warm weather, just as slang terms have been used by soldiers amongst themselves through history, and that similar troops in other armies also used terms relating to baking. So I take it that Ammianus was just reporting usage in referring to with equites catafractarii that they call clibanarii.

Mike

Yes, but not necessarily a derogatory term. The word "Tank" (as I'm sure most of you know) comes from the attempt to confuse the enemy into believing that the WWI Tanks were 'water-tanks' and thus keep the secret weapons a secret... yet whilst many nations call them technically 'Armour' (Armoured Corps, Panzer Corps etc) the Soviets/Russians continued with Tank. I think you might be onto something there Mike.

Ian

[lawrenceg]

clībănus , i, m., = κλίβανος,
I. an earthen or iron vessel for baking bread, broader at the bottom than at the top, Plin. 18, 11, 27, § 105; 20, 9, 39, § 99; cf. Col. 5, 10, 4; id. Arb. 19, 2; Cels. 2, 17; 3, 21 al.—As a utensil of the rich, also of silver, Petr. 35, 6.—
II. Generally, an oven or furnace, Tert. adv. Marc. 4, 30; Sulpic. Sev. Dial. 1, 18.

A Latin Dictionary. Founded on Andrews' edition of Freund's Latin dictionary. revised, enlarged, and in great part rewritten by. Charlton T. Lewis, Ph.D. and. Charles Short, LL.D. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1879.

κρίβανος covered earthen vessel
(Show lexicon entry in LSJ Middle Liddell) (search)

κλίβανος noun sg masc nom


κρίβανος

an earthen vessel, a pan, wider at bottom than at top, wherein bread was baked by putting hot embers round it, Hdt., Ar.

Sounds like a bit like a "camp oven", "Dutch oven", or "Bedourie" to me (in mode of use, not shape).


Perseus is a really handy tool:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/

[Lycanthropic]

Even the enemy came up with their own creative names for their opponents throughout history....Tommy Cookers is a good example.

[philqw78]

Even the enemy came up with their own creative names for their opponents throughout history....Tommy Cookers is a good example.

I believe that was used by both sides as a name of a tank. Tommy comes from "Tommy Atkins", this being the example given in the army pay book for how to sign your name. Soldiers are remarkably stupid.

[grahambriggs]

if you look into it more deeply it gets ever more messy. For example Livy uses Equites Catafractarii for what you'd call catafracts but later writers use clibanarii and it isn't clear when or why there was a change. There is also a rference to "catafractarii clibanarii" (or something close) in the later empire and, of course, dear old Vegetius uses "catafract" for infantry armour

No doubt some of it is that the units concerned would have kept their traditions. If you remove 99% of the information and look at it from a different context it's imposible to be sure.

For example, how would a future historian with very limited data categorise the modern British Grenadier guards? Troops specialising in grenades? or 2 para in the Falklands war who were landed by ship not aircraft? Cavalry regiments converting to tanks but keeing their historical associations in their names comes to mind too.

I suspect it's probable that the term 'cataphract' started with a fairly specific meaning but then became a more generic term referring to protected military stuff, though presumably any unit originally with the name would have stuck with it. 'Clibanarii' then enters the lexicon, perhaps as a more specific term but who knows really. Possibly it's similar to a cavalry regiment armed with tanks?

[tadamson]

suspect it's probable that the term 'cataphract' started with a fairly specific meaning but then became a more generic term referring to protected military stuff, though presumably any unit originally with the name would have stuck with it. 'Clibanarii' then enters the lexicon, perhaps as a more specific term but who knows really. Possibly it's similar to a cavalry regiment armed with tanks?

Some ancient authors use cataphract to mean heavily armoured cavalry on armoured horses, others use it to mean any armour.

The modern precise definition of cataphract isn't reflected in ancient writers. Clibanarii is even less defined - it MAY mean "Persian style". The Equites Contariorum were, we assume, equipped with kontos (Greek for 'barge pole', later used for a long heavy spear used by mounted).

Illustrations show a range of armoured cavalry (many on armoured horses), armed with long spear and, usually, bow in many armies of the period.

simple, non ?

Tom..

[ValentinianVictor]

Even more confusion is caused by Ammianus where he calls the same unit at the Battle of Strasburg 357AD 'Catafractarii et Clibanarii'.
Vegetius, in his description of what I believe is the near mythical 'Currus Drepanus', describes the horses and riders as both Catafratos and Clibanarius.
I have a theory that horses that were covered in armour were called 'Catafractarii' and the riders were the 'Clibanarii'. This would make a lot of sense considering that the Sasanid Persians called their Clibanarii riders 'baking oven men' due to what the riders must have experienced due to the heat exhustion the riders must have suffered.
Some historians believe that the original Roman Catafractarii were heavy cavalry with the riders having the 'contos' ('barge pole') long spear. When cavalry with both riders and horses armoured appeared then the newer term of 'clibanarii' then appears.
Clibanarii appear in numbers after Diocletians reign, Constantius II is credited with greatly increasing their numbers, possibly as a result of his experiences in various wars he had against the Sasanids.