Scout the area

[tomlowshang]

What does the "scout the area" order do?

[PoorOldSpike]

What does the "scout the area" order do?

I've never use the order much so am not an expert on it, but I''ll check it out later and post my findings in this thread..
All I know at the moment is the unit will stay put without moving or firing, and send out an invisible patrol to spot anything that's in cover 2 squares away.

[PoorOldSpike]

I've run tests but still can't figger out what the Scout order does, I'll trawl through the BA1 forum to see if I can pick up any clues in there..

[nmkt72]

By using this command scouts can see 3 squares away instead of the normal 2 squares. Units that can normally see only 1 square are able to see 2 squares away.
With snipers this command is very useful because they can scout and shoot during the same turn.

[PoorOldSpike]

By using this command scouts can see 3 squares away instead of the normal 2 squares. Units that can normally see only 1 square are able to see 2 squares away.
With snipers this command is very useful because they can scout and shoot during the same turn.

Thanks, and I'm trying to find an Editor tutorial so i can set up tests and post screenshots..

[Paul59]

By using this command scouts can see 3 squares away instead of the normal 2 squares. Units that can normally see only 1 square are able to see 2 squares away.
With snipers this command is very useful because they can scout and shoot during the same turn.

Thanks, and I'm trying to find an Editor tutorial so i can set up tests and post screenshots..

You could check out my scenario creation guides for FOG2. I now it is a different game, but the game engine is a development of the one used in BA2, and therefore the Editors are very similar.
You can ignore most of the stuff I waffle on about, because I was also trying to advise people how to create historical scenarios for FOG2, if you only want to make some quick test scenarios the whole process is much simpler.

This is the first part, which tells you how to begin:

viewtopic.php?f=491&t=79872

All the other parts are in the Scenario Design section of the FOG2 forum:

viewforum.php?f=491

[PoorOldSpike]

You could check out my scenario creation guides for FOG2..

Thanks mate, I'm making reasonable progress with the BA2 editor but have hit a snag..
I made a small test to check out the 'Scout' order and it works perfectly but only on Forest tiles without any trees, but as soon as I add the trees graphic the order won't work, the unit stays blind!
Can you offer any clues as to what I'm doing wrong?

[Paul59]

Sorry Spike, I have no idea what the problem is there.

I have just created a similar test scenario, and the Scout command worked fine after I added the trees. There is nothing you have to do as scenario editor to get it to work, it should just work!

Perhaps upload the test scenario .BAM file, and I will take a look at it. When you saved the scenario a folder will have been created in your BA/Campaigns folder (the same place you put my Skirmish Mod). The .BAM file will be in the SCENARIOS sub folder of that folder.

[PoorOldSpike]

Sorry Spike, I have no idea what the problem is there..

Pip just said this below to me in the BA1 forum, so I'll run more tests with different trees-

"IIRC there are both blocking and non-blocking trees. The editors are basically the same, although the BA2 editor has more automated edging tools."
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 05&t=95307

[Paul59]

Yes, there are blocking trees and non blocking, but surely the point of using the Scout command is that you can see through blocking trees, and the non blocking trees would not be affecting LOS in the first place?

When I created my scout test scenario I had a Soviet Scout unit one clear tile away from a patch of forest tiles with the forest birch object on top of each tile. Before using the scout command all the units in the forest were hidden, after using the scout command all units on the forest edge tiles became visible, just as it should do.

Is your test scenario very different to that?

[PoorOldSpike]

EDIT- I deleted some of my obsolete screenshots to de-clutter the thread now that we seem to have solved the issue about how to correctly use scouts (see new post on 24 Nov 10:02)..

[Paul59]

Yes, there are blocking trees and non blocking, but surely the point of using the Scout command is that you can see through blocking trees, and the non blocking trees would not be affecting LOS in the first place?..

Yes and I'm sure there's a simple explanation but I haven't found it yet; I suspect it may have something to do with 'Base' terrain and 'Overlays' and stuff like that, so I'll keep plugging away, a task made a little bit difficult because there's no Editor manual, so we have to learn by trial and error..

After a bit more experimentation I think I have worked out what is going on.

As nmkt72 said in his post above, the Scout command increases a units ability to see enemy by one extra tile, but most of the Tree and Forest objects are "Blocking" terrain, so they stop a unit seeing PAST them, even if they use the Scout command. An enemy unit in the first tile with Blocking trees will normally be hidden, and if you use the Scout command they will be discovered, but an enemy unit further away than that first line of Blocked tiles will not be seen.

If you wanted to set up a light forest, that can be seen right through, you would need to use "pinetree02" which is not a "Blocking" object. In that case it would be best not to use the Forest tile, just place a "pinetree02" on a normal open ground tile. It would have been nice if that was clearer in the Editor! Maybe a helpful tooltip, of even a name change to say "pinetree_nonblocking".

cheers

Paul

[PoorOldSpike]

After a bit more experimentation I think I have worked out what is going on....

Thanks, and at this point can I ask a stupid question, namely in specifically which tactical situations would we want to use the Scout order?

PS- Does the AI use the order? If he doesn't, then I won't use it either in the interests of fair play..

[Paul59]

After a bit more experimentation I think I have worked out what is going on....

Thanks, and at this point can I ask a stupid question, namely in specifically which tactical situations would we want to use the Scout order?

PS- Does the AI use the order? If he doesn't, then I won't use it either in the interests of fair play..

Well, any situation where you want to see a little bit further, for example:

1) If you are on the defensive, with an unseen enemy advancing towards you, and you want to see an extra tile ahead. You may identify an enemy advancing unit and then call down some fire on it.

2) You may be advancing to the edge of some clear ground, and not want to go any further, until you have ascertained if any enemy are hiding in the trees/rough/buildings on the far side.

3) You may be fighting in very cluttered terrain, and there is a hidden unit somewhere firing at you, but you just can't see it. Scouting might reveal it.

I have no idea if the AI uses it. That would be impossible to tell really. We know it uses a lot of things, including the Rally Bonus, which I have seen it use several times tonight. So it may well use the Scout command.

[PoorOldSpike]

...2) You may be advancing to the edge of some clear ground, and not want to go any further, until you have ascertained if any enemy are hiding in the trees/rough/buildings on the far side.

Aha, that's a bingo!..
It seems that previously I was trying to look through treetrunks so no wonder my LOS was blocked.
This new test below shows how it should be done by looking across clear ground, just as you explained-

My three standard Russian infantry units advance to the edge of the trees and halt, peering across the strip of open ground-



I hit the 'Scout' button for the centre unit-



And a jerry unit is revealed on the far side of the clearing, so I order my other two units to engage it, yeehaw! (The scouting unit can't fire on the same turn he scouted)

[PoorOldSpike]

Testing the Scout unit
Unlike regular infantry, the Scout unit does NOT need a 'scout' order to see across the 1-tile wide clearing, simply move him to the edge of the trees and he'll automatically spot the enemy unit on the far side like this..



In this next test I increased the width of the clearing to 2 tiles wide, and the Scout unit could NOT see the enemy on the other side until I used the "scout" order (below)-


So, to answer Tomlowshang's original query "What does the "scout the area" order do?", the order gives your regular Infantry units "x-ray vision" into terrain 2 tiles away across unobstructed ground.
The only disadvantage is that they can't fire on the same turn they scouted, but of course nearby friends can fire.

Regarding Scout units, they're better at spotting than regular infantry because firstly they don't need a scout order to see the enemy 2 tiles away, meaning they can fire at him immediately in the same turn, and secondly they can spot enemies 3 tiles away but they'll need the scout order to do that.

[Paul59]

Testing the Scout unit
Unlike regular infantry, the Scout unit does NOT need a 'scout' order to see across the 1-tile wide clearing, simply move him to the edge of the trees and he'll automatically spot the enemy unit on the far side like this..


In this next test I increased the width of the clearing to 2 tiles wide, and the Scout unit could NOT see the enemy on the other side until I used the "scout" order (below)-

So, to answer Tomlowshang's original query "What does the "scout the area" order do?", the order gives your regular Infantry units "x-ray vision" into terrain 2 tiles away across unobstructed ground.
The only disadvantage is that they can't fire on the same turn they scouted, but of course nearby friends can fire.

Regarding Scout units, they're better at spotting than regular infantry because firstly they don't need a scout order to see the enemy 2 tiles away, meaning they can fire at him immediately in the same turn, and secondly they can spot enemies 3 tiles away but they'll need the scout order to do that.

Another thing worth mentioning is that using the Scout command will often provoke reaction fire on your unit from any enemy they discover. I'm not sure if this is working as designed, or is a bug. Presumably the act of sending out individual men to scout also reveals the presence of your scouting unit to the enemy.

[PoorOldSpike]

Another thing worth mentioning is that using the Scout command will often provoke reaction fire on your unit from any enemy they discover. I'm not sure if this is working as designed, or is a bug. Presumably the act of sending out individual men to scout also reveals the presence of your scouting unit to the enemy.

I used regular infantry and never noticed reaction fire in any of my earlier tests so I just ran this new bigger one and it still didn't provoke any reaction fire, perhaps the units you saw reaction-firing were other types of units?

I advance a line of 10 Russian Riflemen to the edge of the woods and halt-




Below: Next turn I give all my 10 units a 'Scout' order and the German Infantry line is revealed on the far side of the clearing, but none of them performed reaction fire.
Next turn the Germans all disappeared from view and it was all quiet on the Russian front without a shot being fired for the duration of the test.
I'll run more tests later with a variety of German units to see if any of them are provoked into reaction-firing..

[Paul59]

Testing the Scout unit
Unlike regular infantry, the Scout unit does NOT need a 'scout' order to see across the 1-tile wide clearing, simply move him to the edge of the trees and he'll automatically spot the enemy unit on the far side like this..



In this next test I increased the width of the clearing to 2 tiles wide, and the Scout unit could NOT see the enemy on the other side until I used the "scout" order (below)-


So, to answer Tomlowshang's original query "What does the "scout the area" order do?", the order gives your regular Infantry units "x-ray vision" into terrain 2 tiles away across unobstructed ground.
The only disadvantage is that they can't fire on the same turn they scouted, but of course nearby friends can fire.

Regarding Scout units, they're better at spotting than regular infantry because firstly they don't need a scout order to see the enemy 2 tiles away, meaning they can fire at him immediately in the same turn, and secondly they can spot enemies 3 tiles away but they'll need the scout order to do that.

Strange, I have seen this happen many times in normal play, it's very odd that you cannot replicate it.

[PoorOldSpike]

Strange, I have seen this happen many times in normal play, it's very odd that you cannot replicate it.

Seen what happen? Which screenshots are we talking about?