Converting fleets to troops for coastal raids and city defense

[Nijis]

First off, the speed and flexibility of ships makes having a fleet very important in this game, which I like a lot. In many ancient games, fleets can be an expensive money-sink unless you plan to strike a specific target overseas. However, there's always room to expand the role of fleets.

Would it be possible/desirable to allow fleets to convert to weak ground troops in coastal provinces, just as troops become weak ships at sea? They could be a bit of a liability in your main battle line, and wouldn't be much good against anything more than a level 1 fortress, but they could be very useful attacking undefended coastal provinces and could be pressed into service to defend city walls in an emergency.

Among other things, this would make pirates more dangerous, as they should be. Rome's reaction to the pirate raids in the 70s and 60s BC shows that they were taken very seriously, not just as an offshore nuisance but as a real threat to cities and coastal provinces. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Gabin ... rsequendis)

I realize that fleets currently are quite cheap, and probably represent a much smaller number of personnel than a ground unit. So, the conversion from fleet to troop might not necessarily be 1:1, which may be more trouble than it would be worth.

[13obo]

I like the idea a lot. Currently fleets are useful during war when you want to patrol your shores, escort your land troops, blockade the enemy harbours, or hunt their ships/troops. However, outside of war, ships are good for scouting and that's about it.

Having ships convert to a cheap land unit when on land would make them more useful (adding diversity), without making them overpowered if their maintenance costs are still kept as they are, and they are no stronger than regular infantry, for example. This way, they can be kept as garrison or to supplement the main army. Weak nations need to forgo all navy in the start of the game because a plains fight requires to fill 14 units as quickly as possible, but such a change could alter that.

[Lysimachos]

I like the idea a lot. Currently fleets are useful during war when you want to patrol your shores, escort your land troops, blockade the enemy harbours, or hunt their ships/troops. However, outside of war, ships are good for scouting and that's about it. Having ships convert to a cheap land unit when on land would make them more useful (adding diversity), without making them overpowered if their maintenance costs are still kept as they are, and they are no stronger than regular infantry, for example. This way, they can be kept as garrison or to supplement the main army. Weak nations need to forgo all navy in the start of the game because a plains fight requires to fill 14 units as quickly as possible, but such a change could alter that.

+1
This feature would also help the Ptolemaics in giving a sense to the necessity of maintaining an enormous fleet in order to avoid decadence-related penalties ...

[lostangelonline]

Very interesting idea, Nijis. My only concern is that if the devs implement it similar to armies moving in transport ships, it would break realism because, unlike armies moving in boats and leaving nothing behind, marines landing on ground will (in reality) leave unmanned ships behind, ships that can immediately be sink by enemy fleet. What I mean is that fleets can not escape enemy fleets by landing on land, so this mechanic must be preserved in game.

I think the Raid option for pirate ships, as it is now, simulate historic pirates more accurate than allowing them escape over land or use as garrison or conquer undefended lands (same for marines, not just pirates). I've read all the wiki article you linked, and I tend to think that the anti-piracy law was more for political reasons, than actual pirate-threat reasons ("He was given an unprecedented term of three years to solve the problem. Pompey managed to defeat the pirates in just three months.[..]the law gave Pompey[..]power over almost every province").

[Nijis]

What I mean is that fleets can not escape enemy fleets by landing on land, so this mechanic must be preserved in game.

That's a good point - fleets were vulnerable historically even when beached (ie, Aegospotami). I supposed this could be done by having fleets booted back to sea if they attack an enemy province in-turn and it either lacks an anchorage, or they fail to capture the main fortress.

I've read all the wiki article you linked, and I tend to think that the anti-piracy law was more for political reasons, than actual pirate-threat reasons

Pompey certainly played up the threat for political gain, but the raid on Ostia was genuinely quite devastating. Saxon sea-borne raiders were a major headache in the late Empire, and the Renaissance saw all kinds of galley-based raiding by Ottomans, the Barbary states, the Knights of Malta, Spain, and others.

[lostangelonline]

Thanks for the good info. Well my general view is that IF it was possible in reality, it must be possible in a simulation. So if right now FOGE can not simulate a devastating raid on Ostia, I am all for the necessary changes to make it happen, like a more devastating Raid/Pillage for pirate ships, increased penalties when Blockaded, or even more advanced changes like the one Nijis suggested (BUT without introducing unrealistic mechanics, like I exemplified above).

[lostangelonline]

Upon further reading, it seems the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_raid_against_Rome took place in 846AD, and the second https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ostia in 849AD, which is long after the 310BC-190AD period simulated by the game (same for the other examples given), so it can not be used as proof that pirates were so powerful as they were 650+ years later. Besides, both raids ended "in favour of the Christians" and with "Christian victory", so they do not prove pirates could conquer regions either.

Don't get me wrong, I am always pleased to see Nijis and others trying to think of, and suggest, improvements to game mechanics to make the game better

[julianbarker]

Try this link instead re Ostia destroyed by pirates in 68BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostia_Ant ... by_pirates