Spanish Stand Off!

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:53 am

Okay...a little tactic, if any soul cares to comment on. Anyone use little 4pak drilled MF like this or some other similar way?

Stage One:

Stage Two:

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:08 am

Will the flanking MF be able to move into contact? Meaning since they are 4 elements deep, it didn't appear there was enough room between BGs.

Is it enough at impact:
1 stand in contact on the flank with the column of 3 elements all touching edge to edge only securing the lone stand at a corner? Meaning the diagram as is is legal

Madcam.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:12 am

To wheel in a flank charge you need to start more than 1 MU away from the Romans, but assume there is room. When you conform you have your flank offered to any other Roman off screen on the top, and of course the Cav column is going to get smacked.

If the Romans charge uncontrolled they would go straight ahead since they can't contact those as well as the Drilled lurkers, but in situations like this they could move or declare a charge direction to the left of screen against the LF that will probably keep the Drilled in a Roman Restricted Area and if they roll up might hit put the Drilled in the Roman restricted area and with a roll-up could even hit them and the opposing foot - though maybe not in this exact situation.

There is a common interesting standoff with troops on a hill or across a valley, where he who charges first is worst off. Iberia has lots of hills, so . . . .

Mike

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:12 am

I post this to also confirm that it is legal and effective. Am still not 100% clear on column moves. So am hoping for some ideas/clarification/confirmation that this is legal and "works." I know Madcam you were sort of asking something similar with your LH whell charge thingie.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:59 am

Blathergut wrote:I post this to also confirm that it is legal and effective. Am still not 100% clear on column moves. So am hoping for some ideas/clarification/confirmation that this is legal and "works." I know Madcam you were sort of asking something similar with your LH whell charge thingie.

essentially yes but the 1 MU no wheel applies.

Note it is actually better for the roman to fail and charge through the skirmishers. THen the skirmishers being manuver phase outside or restricted. Actually even if in it. The skirmishers turn 90 degrees and got right up to the Spanish MF that want to flank. A lucky javelin hit could disorder the MF. But then if the MF charge the skirmishers roll to take the charge. Even though they will get beat the flank attack does not come off.

So their are counters to this too.

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:38 am

So you can't do it as you can't wheel if within 1MU of the enemy when executing a flank charge , is that correct ?

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:08 am

Keith wrote:So you can't do it as you can't wheel if within 1MU of the enemy when executing a flank charge , is that correct ?

More exactly, you can't wheel in a flank charge if you START the charge within 1 MU of the target.

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:23 am

Ok thanks

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:55 am

MikeK wrote:
Keith wrote:So you can't do it as you can't wheel if within 1MU of the enemy when executing a flank charge , is that correct ?
More exactly, you can't wheel in a flank charge if you START the charge within 1 MU of the target.

Slightly more subtle than that.

You cannot qualify as a flank charge if you wheel within 1 MU in the charge, however, it does not prevent a charge it would just mean that the charge is not counted as a flank charge but as if fighting a front rank base.

MCollett · Post by **MCollett** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:16 am

nikgaukroger wrote:You cannot qualify as a flank charge if you wheel within 1 MU in the charge, however, it does not prevent a charge it would just mean that the charge is not counted as a flank charge but as if fighting a front rank base.

It does prevent the charge if the unit is already fighting to its front with no 'spare' ranks out the back, which is the case depicted at the top of this thread.

Best wishes,
Matthew

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:19 am

That is certainly true in this case.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:49 am

Guys....IS the MF 4pak move, as shown, where the front base wheels (did start more than 1MU from Romans), how you actually execute a column wheel?

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:19 am

Blathergut wrote:Guys....IS the MF 4pak move, as shown, where the front base wheels (did start more than 1MU from Romans), how you actually execute a column wheel?

Not quite.

The point the column wheels will be the front inside corner. You have effectively done the wheel on the rear corner. If you wheel 90 on the front corner there will still be 10mm of the Roman base in front of you so you would be OK to charge.

If the MF are more than 1 MU from the legionaries (and in this picture it looks to me to be that they aren't) then this 'tactic' would work. The 1MU is not the distance that has to be moved to contact, it is the closest point between.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:09 am

hammy wrote:
Blathergut wrote:Guys....IS the MF 4pak move, as shown, where the front base wheels (did start more than 1MU from Romans), how you actually execute a column wheel?
Not quite.

The point the column wheels will be the front inside corner. You have effectively done the wheel on the rear corner. If you wheel 90 on the front corner there will still be 10mm of the Roman base in front of you so you would be OK to charge.

If the MF are more than 1 MU from the legionaries (and in this picture it looks to me to be that they aren't) then this 'tactic' would work. The 1MU is not the distance that has to be moved to contact, it is the closest point between.

It looks to me as though he did do the wheel in the correct way. If you compare the positions of the bases relative to the cavalry BG, you can see that the front base wheeled on its front corner and the rest of the BG has moved up into contact with its rear corner.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:34 am

lawrenceg wrote:
hammy wrote:
Blathergut wrote:Guys....IS the MF 4pak move, as shown, where the front base wheels (did start more than 1MU from Romans), how you actually execute a column wheel?
Not quite.

The point the column wheels will be the front inside corner. You have effectively done the wheel on the rear corner. If you wheel 90 on the front corner there will still be 10mm of the Roman base in front of you so you would be OK to charge.

If the MF are more than 1 MU from the legionaries (and in this picture it looks to me to be that they aren't) then this 'tactic' would work. The 1MU is not the distance that has to be moved to contact, it is the closest point between.
It looks to me as though he did do the wheel in the correct way. If you compare the positions of the bases relative to the cavalry BG, you can see that the front base wheeled on its front corner and the rest of the BG has moved up into contact with its rear corner.

Ah, I see what you are saying.

What confused me is that the second base in the column has reached the wheel point so that would also swing round and the rear of the column would shuffle up a bit more.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:38 am

k..thanks...just wanted to be sure of how to execute the wheel....we'd been swinging the whole column around!!

Yes, it was 1MU from the Romans once they charged in. Yes, did wheel on the front corner and then charged forward to hit the back half of the rear Roman.

Wanted to be sure the move was possible in the space.

Ya, whether you ever get such an ideal set up....but we have seen the roman (and the spanish) shock foot be sucked out of position...the spanish cav. and such would most likely be fighting whatever romans are there...i just didn't put units there so I had room for text!

Thanks for all the answers!

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:41 am

Blathergut wrote:Yes, it was 1MU from the Romans once they charged in.

Are you sure about that? The bases are only 20mm deep and 1MU is more than a base depth. I can't see how they were more than 1MU away at the start of the charge.

Yes, did wheel on the front corner and then charged forward to hit the back half of the rear Roman.

Yes, that does look correct when I look carefully.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:49 am

Easiest way to counter that move would be for the Romans to expand by one base earlier so your charge would hit head on.
On the upside it reduces the Roman dice for combat since it would be only 1 base deep there.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:08 pm

yes...the first photo shows the MU marker...the unit is 1MU (or just a tad more) to the left of the Spanish heavies....but they could be a bit more just to be safe. Everything is 25mm.

hammy wrote:
Blathergut wrote:Yes, it was 1MU from the Romans once they charged in.
Are you sure about that? The bases are only 20mm deep and 1MU is more than a base depth. I can't see how they were more than 1MU away at the start of the charge.
Yes, did wheel on the front corner and then charged forward to hit the back half of the rear Roman.
Yes, that does look correct when I look carefully.

mellis1644 · Post by **mellis1644** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:38 pm

deadtorius wrote:Easiest way to counter that move would be for the Romans to expand by one base earlier so your charge would hit head on.
On the upside it reduces the Roman dice for combat since it would be only 1 base deep there.

I don't have my rules with me but why couldn't the expansion be 2 deep? As 8 elements in a 5 wide formation 1 of the back row is a single file, but does that have to be the expanded rank element? It's a legal formation for the gap to be say be where the general is and can't the other elements shuffle their locations in an expansion?

If that is they case then they could expand by 1 base width and that 2 expanded element file be 2 deep on that side in front of the Spanish MF. Then won't a Roman charge step forward and contact the MF in the impact stage?

The Romans may not want to do that and may want to limit the step forward move so they get the highest number of die against the HF. However, if they do make the expansion 2 deep then this move though brings more Spanish MF into play. If the Romans do reasonably well in impact the MF may be in a bad spot in melee - especially if as pictured they can't expand to add more bases to that combat.