"Make Evade Moves"

pbrandon · Post by **pbrandon** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:31 pm

"Make Evade Moves" is in the turn sequence, but the following came up tonight as an issue:

Where multiple BGs (let's say A, B and C) are being charged by a single enemy BG and all friendly BGs (i.e. A, B and C) choose to evade, do you roll for A's evade then move A, before rolling for B and then C, or do you roll for the evade distance of A, B and C and then choose which to evade first, second and third? It can make a difference where A, B and C are angled relative to each other or where the table edge is an issue.

Paul

TERRYFROMSPOKANE · Post by **TERRYFROMSPOKANE** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:23 am

I can't find a rule that addresses this. I suggest using the pursuit paradigm and move the fastest evader first.

Terry

Lycanthropic · Post by **Lycanthropic** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:54 am

Declare all charge directions then declare all evade directions, since all the evade directions are declared before any BG moves....it doesn't matter which one moves 'first'.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:07 am

Lycanthropic wrote:Declare all charge directions then declare all evade directions, since all the evade directions are declared before any BG moves....it doesn't matter which one moves 'first'.

Well technically it could. In general you are likely right. But iirc there is an owning player choice. The faster move is a specific other thing.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:08 am

In addition to p168, check page 52 (4 stages of the Impact Phase) and page 68 (the active player decides sequence in which charges and their responses are actioned). Stage 2 is responses to charges.

Since this has been thrashed out in great detail in the past, I'll summarize.

Charge direction (the direction the charger will be facing when it contacts its target) is often declared when charges are declared, but the rule is that charge direction need not be declared until the first point in time at which there is a need to know the direction of that charge.

In order of time, it is necessary
- when an interception charge may be a possible charge response
- when an evade move must be made (this is after the decision to evade or not is made, so other than evading to the rear you may have to guess which direction will be away from the charge until it is time to evade)
- when a charge move must be made

So in the example you give, a charge is declared, the responses (evade) are declared for each BG in turn, a legal charge direction must then be declared, and each evader executes its response in turn - this response consists of determining evade direction, rolling variable move die, and making the evade move, then moving to the next evader to conduct its response.

As to which is 1st 2nd and 3rd, I think the rule on p68 means the active player (charging player) can choose the sequence of evades.

In my personal view, the goal should always be the most plausible result. Usually this would mean the farthest evading first and the nearest last, the evades in reality being contemporaneous and evaders bursting through other evaders, who then evade, seems odd at best. This can of course still happen if those far away roll short and those nearest then roll long, but with a speed differential this is a plausible result. In a casual game you might allow all evaders to roll at the same time and the evading player sort out what to do then, but that's ignoring exact sequencing.

I hope this is all clear.

Mike

__________________________________________________

Read it now, don't hesitate - Sequence of Play, Page 168

TERRYFROMSPOKANE · Post by **TERRYFROMSPOKANE** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:23 pm

Mike, since Paul made the topic "Make Evade Moves", I think it is likely he didn't hesitate to read the Full Turn Sequence on pg 168 before asking the question. As you point out, the answer lies is the Sequence of Charges and Responses on pg 68.

When it comes to declaring charges and the direction of charges, I have cut triangles out of index card stock. The base of each is 1 inch and the sides running to the apex are 1 3/4 inches. We lay these down when a charge is declared and then position them when it is necessary to declare the charge direction.

Terry

Dyeeles · Post by **Dyeeles** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:41 pm

This question isn't about the order you evade in, it's actually about do you roll all Variable Move dice and then move them or do you roll for, say, A then move it, then roll for B and move and last but not least then roll for C and move it.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:13 pm

Dyeeles wrote:do you roll for, say, A then move it, then roll for B and move and last but not least then roll for C and move it.

Yes.

Dyeeles · Post by **Dyeeles** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:36 am

Having looked at the rules you don't actually get to choose which order they evade in. As they are responding to a charge they react in the order that the charges happen, therefore your opponent has control of who moves when.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:42 am

Dyeeles wrote:Having looked at the rules you don't actually get to choose which order they evade in. As they are responding to a charge they react in the order that the charges happen, therefore your opponent has control of who moves when.

If you mean the active (charging) player decides, yes, I think the rule on p68 means that. There's nothing to suggest the evading player is entitled to choose the order, though often done in practice and often doesn't matter.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:17 pm

MikeK wrote:
Dyeeles wrote:Having looked at the rules you don't actually get to choose which order they evade in. As they are responding to a charge they react in the order that the charges happen, therefore your opponent has control of who moves when.
If you mean the active (charging) player decides, yes, I think the rule on p68 means that. There's nothing to suggest the evading player is entitled to choose the order, though often done in practice and often doesn't matter.

Well two different bits here interacting.

1) The chargin player determines which of his charging units is being moved in what order. So the charging player can pick group B. Then units that are effected by B evade first. If there are more than one unit effected by B, then the evader gets to choose.

In practice it almost never matters.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:34 pm

hazelbark wrote:If there are more than one unit effected by B, then the evader gets to choose.

In my quest for certitude, I'd be interested in anything indicating the evader chooses evade order.

Charge moves come after charge responses, so at the point evades occur the charger will have had to lay down the measuring sticks or equivalents for charge directions but not decided or announced charge move order, so tying evade order to charge order wouldn't work.

Cheers,

Mike

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:49 pm

First To make sure we are not talking past each other.

A..1
....2
B..3

You are A and B. I am 1,2 and 3.
sequence
You declare charges. A is charging 1. B is charging 2 and 3.
You decide to execute charge B first.

So the debate is which unit 2 or 3 conducts its evade first. (Obviously we are assuming this matters for some reason)

Now for certitude, there was a post awhile back (probalby during the server crash) where someone with author like authority said if it is not referenced in the rules of who moves first (like pursuit) then the owner of the BG decides.

I am happy for that to be changed but that was where I got my certitude from, FWIW.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:49 pm

I don't recall the post, but that would be if the rules were silent. For pursuit the faster first or pursuer chooses if equal rule is spelled out at p108. I think the sequence of stages at p52 and p68 cover the order of charge responses if anything I've seen does. Starting with your example:

A..1
....2
B..3

I am A and B. You are 1,2 and 3.
sequence
I declare charges. A is charging 1. B is charging 2 and 3.
You declare that 1, 2 and 3 will all evade

I lay down 2 sticks showing the charge direction (at which I would hit you if you didn't evade). A a little to the right, B a little to the left.

Since by chance or your or my design 1 and 2 could run into each other and need to contract if one or both choose to evade in the direction of the charge rather than their rear, as active player I say do 1 and then 2, and that it doesn't matter if 3 is first or last .

You do 3, then decide direction or 1's evade and move it, then decide direction of 2's evade and move it.

I charge move A and then B, wheeling at some point in the charge to the declared charge direction or maybe changing the wheel to pursue evaders depending on where they end up.

That's what I think the rules mentioned provide.

------>> But having the evader decide the order of evades would work too - I'd prefer the rule to be whichever least encourages overcareful calculation of evade paths when positioning skirmishers and declaring charges and directions.

I'm not positive, but my expectation is having the evader decide the order of evades would tend to take up less time for the evader in manoeuvre because he will have more options to work with should an evade come up and take less time for the charger in charge declaration and direction declaration since there will be fewer opportunities to take time to work out a cunning plan to discomfit the evader.

Disconcertituded,

Mike

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:46 am

Ok minor point does the page 68 "sequence of charges and responses" effect any over your statements.

I think one of thinks that matters more than the other one. And it will be fun to find out who is right.

But I am sure we can engineer your chief issue regardless.

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:51 pm

MikeK wrote: ------>> But having the evader decide the order of evades would work too - I'd prefer the rule to be whichever least encourages overcareful calculation of evade paths when positioning skirmishers and declaring charges and directions.

I'm not positive, but my expectation is having the evader decide the order of evades would tend to take up less time for the evader in manoeuvre because he will have more options to work with should an evade come up and take less time for the charger in charge declaration and direction declaration since there will be fewer opportunities to take time to work out a cunning plan to discomfit the evader.

Disconcertituded,

Mike

I agree strongly with your main point which is (as I see it) that--the rules being silent on this point--we should go with the option that provides the least chance for fiddly positioning. That, as far as I can see, means that the evader should choose the order of evades. There is still a chance for a clever charger to bollux up a shortsighted or unlucky evader, but there will be less incentive to micromanage the positioning of charges.

IMHO, of course.

Marc

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:10 pm

the evader should choose the order of evades.

This may not be possible. Evaders move, chargers roll vmd and then someone else may have/wish to to evade.[/quote]

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:55 pm

philqw78 wrote:
the evader should choose the order of evades.
This may not be possible. Evaders move, chargers roll vmd and then someone else may have/wish to to evade.

[/quote]

I should have been more specific, and said that evaders choose the order of evades for each declared charge. Thus, the charger declares which BG is charging, then all evades caused by that charge are resolved. If there is a question of the order of the evades, then the evaders decides.

Marc

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:58 pm

babyshark wrote:I should have been more specific, and said that evaders choose the order of evades for each declared charge. Thus, the charger declares which BG is charging, then all evades caused by that charge are resolved.

Actually, per the sequence of play-related pages I cited above, it think it is that all charges are declared, then the steps where all charge responses are determined, then the step where charger declares all charge directions, then all evades are executed (we all seem to agree that evader ought to choose the order of these)

then all chargers move, with any new evades happening as part of a particular charge move resolved as part of that charge movement before going to the next charger.

Most of the time fights and independent enough that it doesn't matter, but I think it would be really helpful if the exact clockwork steps be laid out by the authors in a FAQ expanded sequence of play for the hard part of the Impact Phase, which is everything but the exciting part at the end of it.

Mike

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:45 pm

MikeK wrote:
Actually, per the sequence of play-related pages I cited above, it think it is that all charges are declared, then the steps where all charge responses are determined, then the step where charger declares all charge directions, then all evades are executed (we all seem to agree that evader ought to choose the order of these)

Mike are you suggesting that ALL evades across the entire board are moved before ANY charge moves?