13th/14th Century Siena and Florence

[rbodleyscott]

I think you may be making a mistake by trying to run it without foot in FOG. I ran Venice in Italy with 12 Kn (2x6), 4 groups of light horse (4x4), 12 Italian Pikes, 12 Swiss Pikes, and some of the halbadiers and light foot. So far the battle winning units seem to be the pikes. I generally end up with knights and LH on the wings and the pikes making the final decisive effort in the center. I run 4 TC's and each unit of knights always has a general fighting up front in melee. IMO the combination of Pikes, Knights, and LH is difficult for many opponents to deal with.

I have also run this composition of Venetian army and agree with Aaron's points.

[cpt_safety]

So what minis would you guys order to make a starter communal Italian army, given that the list is not yet available? Should I just excercise patience and order in July? Should I just order based on a 'generic' medieval army or make it similar to one of the starter armies already available?

Maybe I'm just a little too impatient.

-Bill

[nikgaukroger]

I advise patience

[rbodleyscott]

So what minis would you guys order to make a starter communal Italian army, given that the list is not yet available? Should I just excercise patience and order in July? Should I just order based on a 'generic' medieval army or make it similar to one of the starter armies already available?

Well it is a safe bet that you will need:

Knights (up to 32 bases, variously graded)
Spearmen (HF) (up to 96 bases , variously graded)
Crossbowmen (MF or LF) (up to 24 bases, variously graded)

Start with what you fancy of those.

If your army is after 1200 and you like the mixed Pavisier/Crossbow BGs, you will also need Pavisiers (HF) for the front rank of these (and MF crossbows for the back rank). (They come out of the 24 bases crossbow maximum)

You can also have a few Cavalry or LH mounted crossbowmen and LF archers.

Also a camp with carroccio and defenders.

[agorfein1]

Generally speaking I guess a BG with 6 Kn's is very hard to manouvre. But your combination for Condotta seems to work it.
Sergio

I actually find the Kn pretty maneuverable since they are all drilled. Generally my combat formation is 4 in front, 2 in back and expanding after impact, if necessary. They can also be maneuvered pretty well in 3x3 or 2x4. Since they are drilled and almost always have a TC, expanding is not much of a problem.

Aaron

[marioslaz]

So what minis would you guys order to make a starter communal Italian army, given that the list is not yet available? Should I just excercise patience and order in July? Should I just order based on a 'generic' medieval army or make it similar to one of the starter armies already available?

Maybe I'm just a little too impatient.

-Bill

Again, this depends on period and region. There was a lot of difference between an army of Venezia, Milano, Roma, Napoli, etc. In part of the communal era there was a lot of difference also if a city was Guelfa or Ghibellina, and this status could change, for minor city, more frequently than one time per year. Since you state you won't partecipate in tournament, and this is a point for you , you should state what do you want play because I can help you.

[cpt_safety]

you should state what do you want play because I can help you.

Siena: 1200-1250 Previous to their eventual submission to Firenze. I would like to then get a Florentine army for them to battle against. Maybe that's later this year.

At the moment, I'm taking rbodleyscott's advice and compiling a bunch of numbers of minis to order. Some historical perspective on my particular force would be welcome, though. I found a list of estimates for the Battle of Montaperti once onle, but I have yet to repeat my once fine Googling skills.

Thanks,
Bill

[marioslaz]

Siena: 1200-1250 Previous to their eventual submission to Firenze. I would like to then get a Florentine army for them to battle against. Maybe that's later this year.

At the moment, I'm taking rbodleyscott's advice and compiling a bunch of numbers of minis to order. Some historical perspective on my particular force would be welcome, though. I found a list of estimates for the Battle of Montaperti once onle, but I have yet to repeat my once fine Googling skills.

Thanks,
Bill

I found this page (in Italian sorry) with some picture of Senese army at Battle of Montaperti

http://www.icsm.it/world/modellismo/siena.html

Roughly in this period started a process which gave a new importance to infantry. The first step in this process was the combination between crossbowmen and spearmen, otherwise known as Pavesari (this is just a fast introduction). If you want to simulate the first attempts of collaboration between this troops, you can use crossbowmen LF, so they can flee behind spearmen ranks; of course you need also some crossbowmen BG of MF. If you want to simulate a more complex cooperation between them you can use mixed BG of spearmen and crossbowmen. The difference in game terms is, if I don't make a blunder, in first case you fire since knights charge, but not during impact because your LF must flee, in second case you can shoot also during the impact as support. If I'm right in this way you can simulate the increased efficacy of shooting during the develop of these infantry tactics. Perhaps in the period you indicated Siena shouldn't have yet developed the last step (mixed BG) since the only reference to these tactics I found were used by Bolognese army in Battle of Fossalta (1249) and seems that Bolognesi were ahead in the developing of these tactics. Siena was Ghibellina in this period and you can also use some ally from Svevia House. More, in the Battle of Fossalta Bolognesi fought against Re Enzo (Svevia House) and the good effect of the infantry tactics against German Knights could be another proof that Ghibellina side (and so Siena) still didn't know them. Whatever your choice, the proportion indicated seems fine to me.