Wolves from the Sea - Byzantine's hard judged

A forum for any questions relating to army design, the army companion books and upcoming lists.

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SirGarnet
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Post by SirGarnet »

WhiteKnight wrote:lists were first designed and published to prevent gamesmanship and totally unrepresentative armies taking the table and to promote some degree of trust between players. If a player's army differed from the published list, you were entitled to ask why the army's owner had come to that view and take him on his merits. After all, it was possible that the player had more information about a specific army than the list compiler, or had an equally valid but different interpretation of the sources.

Not sure where that leaves us! Maybe in competitions, we must live with lists as published until revisions are officially sanctionned...you enter the competitive FoG world, you play by the rules and lists! However, outside of that, anyone is at liberty to adapt lists ( and rules, too if you wish) as suits themselves and the people they game with?
I think that's about it.

I expect a tournament that allowed a non-canonical army no matter what the basis would not be counted for national/global tournament purposes on grounds of fairness and consistency, even if it seems procrustean. That makes it difficult to run a casual tournament that isn't canonical since it would tick off some of the prospective players and reduce participation.

The same strictures tend to spread to non-competitive games as well. I think the army lists are pretty good, but there are the debatable cases like this one and the armies that don't yet exist since they have not been listed - all the more reason for impatience regarding companion release dates.
bahdahbum
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Post by bahdahbum »

Dear Nik,

I have not always the time to read everything and sorry if I missed some points or could not always read between the lines . I am perfectly aware that you and the others are very very busy with the forthcomming list .

As it was written, I also think that going to TNE will not be positive and a separate list of dicussion for FOG would be better but I have not the sill and time to run such a project . I can intervene here and there .

Why would you and the others not create a FOG TNE but on this siteor on the official FOG sit . It would make things much more simpler .

regards
nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger »

bahdahbum wrote:
Why would you and the others not create a FOG TNE but on this siteor on the official FOG sit . It would make things much more simpler .

As I said earlier:
nikgaukroger wrote: Putting it on the official forum would give it spurious authority and lead to possibly unrealistic expectations about changes to lists - especially if contributors to the existing lists were minded to chip in.

Having it elsewhere means the information is preserved but it would be clear that it is an unofficial project - although it would no doubt be useful and appreciated should there be revisions.
Nik Gaukroger

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Post by nikgaukroger »

PaulByzan wrote:
OK, so you want supporting evidence of the outflankers as skirmishers, here you go:

From McGeer's translation of the The Taktika on tactical function of the Prokoursatores: Chap 57, para 5. "If the enemy is advancing toward our units, you, the commander of the army, must send ahead five hundred or three hundred cavalrymen--not heavy kataphraktoi, but light and elusive--the ones the ancients called proukoursatores. They must be wearing their klibania only, and should set ambushes (a set-up rule in FoG) if they get the chance..." Then: "When our prokoursatores, the cavalrymen, make initial contact with the enemy, join battle with them, and the alarm goes up...", Para 10 "If though, when our units approach the enemy formations, these enemy formations remain in place, the prokoursatores should then move forward and begin skirmishing to open the battle."

Can't think of a clearer possiblity that native LH in the form of the prokoursatores were a regular feature of the Byzantine army and that they were not just scouts but active battle participants as skirmishers, not as Cv.

Weapons and armour. Again the Tatika, Chap 61, para 2: Prokoursatores must be set apart, five hundred cavalrymen. There must be proficient archers among them, one hundred or 120 men, and the rest of them must all be lancers." Later in the chapter: "These prokoursatores should not have an assigned station like the cavalry divisions for the reason that they are the ones who begin skirmishing and open the battle."

Again, clearly a function that would have probably 4-12 stands, some division of lancers/archers, Klibania and shield would rate them as Protected, and possibly a case tha they should be allowed superior status at least in the Nikephorian period, judging from their performance against the Rus in the 971AD campaign
OK, I'm not going to get into a discussion on detail here but I will throw the following out as examples of the sort of questions that might be asked by the list team if the above had been put forward in list development. I'm offering them to hopefully help you develop your arguments.

1. Any reason you have only quoted part of the information on the roles of the prokoursatores?
2. In FoG Cv can skirmish, it is a different mechanism to LH but it does cover skirmishing. In FoG mounted skirmisher does not automatically mean LH, you would have to show that LH is the most appropriate taking into account all their battlefield roles and behaviour.
3. How do 500 men turn into 4-12 bases?

Hopefully food for thought. Now go and set up FoG TNE and discuss it 8)
Nik Gaukroger

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bahdahbum
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Post by bahdahbum »

3. How do 500 men turn into 4-12 bases?
Easely at least for 4 bases . nobody defined a ratio base/manpower and many battles were fought with 8.000-12.000 men . Other were much bigger so who cares
Hopefully food for thought. Now go and set up FoG TNE and discuss it


I would like to but have not the skill and time sorry . can smeone create it and run it ?
nikgaukroger
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Post by nikgaukroger »

bahdahbum wrote:
3. How do 500 men turn into 4-12 bases?
Easely at least for 4 bases . nobody defined a ratio base/manpower
Clue on page 124 of the rules - but just a guideline as it all ends up about proportions so you need to set allowed base numbers to give, within a range, a reasonable proportion of various troop types.

and many battles were fought with 8.000-12.000 men . Other were much bigger so who cares
List writers :twisted:
Nik Gaukroger

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bahdahbum
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Post by bahdahbum »

I love you :P
PaulByzan
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Post by PaulByzan »

Moderator edit - I wish people would review what they post to see that the formatting is correct. I have tidied this one up.

And a jolly good job you did too. I was quite chuffed by it. :)

Paul G.
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Post by PaulByzan »

nikgaukroger wrote:
PaulByzan wrote:
OK, I'm not going to get into a discussion on detail here but I will throw the following out as examples of the sort of questions that might be asked by the list team if the above had been put forward in list development. I'm offering them to hopefully help you develop your arguments.

1. Any reason you have only quoted part of the information on the roles of the prokoursatores?
2. In FoG Cv can skirmish, it is a different mechanism to LH but it does cover skirmishing. In FoG mounted skirmisher does not automatically mean LH, you would have to show that LH is the most appropriate taking into account all their battlefield roles and behaviour.
3. How do 500 men turn into 4-12 bases?

Hopefully food for thought. Now go and set up FoG TNE and discuss it 8)
Fair enough Nik, but I don't think that Jacques, David, myself or any others who have commented on the "hard judging" of the Byzantine lists are claiming that we can ever have definitive proof that this or that troop type was absolutely one thing or the other. What we are trying to demonstrate (and I believe my "selective" quotes supported this) is that there are legitimate, alternative interpretations to formation, morale and armour for certain Byzantine troop types and these alternatives should be allowed, as they are for other army lists.

As to the specific questions that might be raised above:

1) I quoted the parts that supported my argument that there were alternative explanations. Never said that was the only interpretation from the Manual.
2.For the Outflankers and/or Prokoursatores at least some of them, if not the majority are described as carrying lances as opposed to bows. If this is the case then as Cav they could not operate as skirmishers under the rules. Further the description in the translation can certainly be interpreted to indicate that they operated in looser formation in their skirmishing role than the line battle cavalry.
3. Well there are 8 bases of Outflankers allowed in the Nikephorean list as it is. If those were given an option of being LH or Cav, that would be fair.

Finally, I wish I had enought skill with computers to set up the TNE but unfortunately I don't. Also, for me time is an issue. Hopefully, there is a sufficiently computer savvy pro-Byzantine type on this list somewhere.

Paul G
bahdahbum
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Post by bahdahbum »

Finally, I wish I had enought skill with computers to set up the TNE but unfortunately I don't. Also, for me time is an issue. Hopefully, there is a sufficiently computer savvy pro-Byzantine type on this list somewhere.
Me too :?
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Post by hammy »

All that is needed to setup a FoG TNE is for someone to go to Yahoo and create a new mailing list. There is no need at present to do a Wiki or anything of that ilk. Just a place for people to post evidence and ideas where it would be recorded. If there is someone willing to be a list owner I could setup a TNE list for FoG in 2 minutes. I don't however want to end up as owner and to be honest I suspect that I don't have that much I could personally contribute from a history PoV.
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Post by madaxeman »

hammy wrote:All that is needed to setup a FoG TNE is for someone to go to Yahoo and create a new mailing list. There is no need at present to do a Wiki or anything of that ilk. Just a place for people to post evidence and ideas where it would be recorded. If there is someone willing to be a list owner I could setup a TNE list for FoG in 2 minutes. I don't however want to end up as owner and to be honest I suspect that I don't have that much I could personally contribute from a history PoV.
There's nothing to stop anyone adding "FOG TNE" sections or pages to the FoG WIKI on madaxeman.com to sit alongside the pages on the existing armies - I can also very easily "switch on" forum functionality for registered WIKI users as well.

If anyone has ideas as to what elements/section would be on a "FoG TNE" page I can even set up a template page to make it easier to create parallel pages t the "standard" ones

tim
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Post by hammy »

madaxeman wrote:
hammy wrote:All that is needed to setup a FoG TNE is for someone to go to Yahoo and create a new mailing list. There is no need at present to do a Wiki or anything of that ilk. Just a place for people to post evidence and ideas where it would be recorded. If there is someone willing to be a list owner I could setup a TNE list for FoG in 2 minutes. I don't however want to end up as owner and to be honest I suspect that I don't have that much I could personally contribute from a history PoV.
There's nothing to stop anyone adding "FOG TNE" sections or pages to the FoG WIKI on madaxeman.com to sit alongside the pages on the existing armies - I can also very easily "switch on" forum functionality for registered WIKI users as well.

If anyone has ideas as to what elements/section would be on a "FoG TNE" page I can even set up a template page to make it easier to create parallel pages t the "standard" ones

tim
www.madaxeman.com
That sounds like a very good idea Tim.
bahdahbum
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Post by bahdahbum »

and how do we have to register as wiki user :?:

As for the elements perhaps a dcussion area , a list proposal area , should we do it by book that's open to discussion but the simpliest the best .
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Post by madaxeman »

bahdahbum wrote:and how do we have to register as wiki user :?:

As for the elements perhaps a dcussion area , a list proposal area , should we do it by book that's open to discussion but the simpliest the best .
If I'm doing it, it would have to be simple!

http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-register.php is the registration page. Your username can be anything you like, and your own password need only be a minimum of 1 character long. The "passcode" and anti-bot verification are to stop spam and false registrations. If you can't work out the "passcode" from the clue, you probably shouldn;t be adding anything to the WIKI anyway :lol:

http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-forums.php is the forum page (I've just set up - so not sure how it all works!), the detail of how to use the WIKI is here

http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-ind ... this+works

I'll look at TNE and set up a template for the wiki pages later today
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Thanks to madaxeman

Post by davidharvey1 »

Thanks to madaxeman for setting this up, look forwards to participating. Having started this particular Byzantine ball rolling, as Paul and others have started several others, a TNE for serious discussion and debate of lists is a good result. The objective now had to be to raise the profile and drive traffic. If I've dropped out of the thread over the last few days that's down to everything else crowding in - the work thing. Now let evidence and the forces of democracy (not common in Constantinople I'll agree) do their work
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Re: Thanks to madaxeman

Post by madaxeman »

davidharvey1 wrote:Thanks to madaxeman for setting this up, look forwards to participating. Having started this particular Byzantine ball rolling, as Paul and others have started several others, a TNE for serious discussion and debate of lists is a good result. The objective now had to be to raise the profile and drive traffic. If I've dropped out of the thread over the last few days that's down to everything else crowding in - the work thing. Now let evidence and the forces of democracy (not common in Constantinople I'll agree) do their work
I've set up a a page template and also created a sample page for Nikephorians.

http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-ind ... +Byzantine

It links in from the main Nikephorian page http://www.madaxeman.com/wiki2/tiki-ind ... +Byzantine just after army lists.

Feel free to have a play :twisted:
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bahdahbum
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Post by bahdahbum »

Thanks madaxeman

I registered yesterday and will try to have a look once again today :P
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Re: Thanks to madaxeman

Post by nikgaukroger »

davidharvey1 wrote: Now let evidence and the forces of democracy (not common in Constantinople I'll agree) do their work

Democracy?

Well I suppose it is one man with one vote :twisted:
Nik Gaukroger

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[quote]Well I suppose it is one man with one vote [/quote]

Post by dave_r »

Well I suppose it is one man with one vote
Who is the one man with the one vote though :)
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