Marioslaz - Italian History X

[DaiSho]

Hi, this is a message primarily to Mario, but happy to hear from anyone.

I've long been interested in the Etruscans. I think they have a fascinating history, but unfortunately there is little contemporary history and most post-contemporary history is Romanesque 'written by the victors'.

From the history I HAVE been able to garner I would think that the Etruscans should pretty much be 'Early Hoplites', perhaps akin to Drilled Kyrenian Greek if for no other reason than to give them access to Chariotry. I also find it hard to accept that a people who militarily and culturally influenced half of the Italian Peninsula should be considered 'inferior' as other rules systems have claimed for no other reason than Livy writing "They controlled Rome the bastards, so I'm going to degrade them across the annals of time". Well, ok, Livy didn't actually write that, but he probably said it to his mates. That said, just because a nation influences another doesn't mean that they are militarily better (on the wargames table) - so perhaps the Etruscans SHOULD be considered 'fat and lazy'. I just think you've got to have a better reason than 'their enemies didn't like them' as reason to downgrade their military effectiveness.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Ian

[marioslaz]

Hi, this is a message primarily to Mario, but happy to hear from anyone.

Present!
Indeed you ask me about a period very fascinating. I live in a city where you can touch (I mean really this, touch) a villanoviana grave; of course just the monument in "tufo" (a kind of marble) because whatever was in the interior has been transported in our museum. But this is not all, of course. I can show you a lot about Etruschi in my city an in nearby villages. And I was in Volterra, where I could see a wonderful museum all about Etruschi. This spring I hope to go to make another visit in the region (Toscana is at an hour of car from my home town) but I fear I will be more interested in wine than history
More I will write next days, but now I want to tell you that Livio (better Titus Livius) is very good to comprehend ancient thought and mentality, but about history he is not very accurate. Anyway, I leave you for the moment with this reflection: in 400 BC Veio has been conquered by Romani after tens of years of fight. Veio was just one important city state of Lega Etrusca (I want to be good and I translated Etruscan League). Do you know how many kilometres was Veio from Roma? About twenty!!! Veio was just twenty kilometres far from Roma. This say a lot about importance and dimension of region controlled by Etruschi.

[DaiSho]

Present!
Indeed you ask me about a period very fascinating. I live in a city where you can touch (I mean really this, touch) a villanoviana grave; of course just the monument in "tufo" (a kind of marble) because whatever was in the interior has been transported in our museum. But this is not all, of course. I can show you a lot about Etruschi in my city an in nearby villages. And I was in Volterra, where I could see a wonderful museum all about Etruschi. This spring I hope to go to make another visit in the region (Toscana is at an hour of car from my home town) but I fear I will be more interested in wine than history

You say this like it's a bad thing . BTW, did you know that there are vampires in Volterra? Yes indeedie. According to Stephanie Meyers at least

More I will write next days, but now I want to tell you that Livio (better Titus Livius) is very good to comprehend ancient thought and mentality, but about history he is not very accurate. Anyway, I leave you for the moment with this reflection: in 400 BC Veio has been conquered by Romani after tens of years of fight. Veio was just one important city state of Lega Etrusca (I want to be good and I translated Etruscan League). Do you know how many kilometres was Veio from Roma? About twenty!!! Veio was just twenty kilometres far from Roma. This say a lot about importance and dimension of region controlled by Etruschi.

Well, I can think of it in two ways.

Firstly, if it takes tens of years for the Romans to move 20km against a 'fat and lazy' opponent, then perhaps the Romans weren't all that good .

Secondly, I don't care WHO you are, if you fight for tens of years you're going to get good at fighting .

Ian

P.S. I'm jealous of your being able to touch a tomb so old. In Australia our only artifacts older than 200 years are Aboriginal, and whilst fascinating in their own right aren't allowed to be touched due to their fragility.

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

P.S. I'm jealous of your being able to touch a tomb so old. In Australia our only artifacts older than 200 years are Aboriginal, and whilst fascinating in their own right aren't allowed to be touched due to their fragility.

You just need to get yourselves an overseas empire and then steal other peoples.

[DaiSho]

P.S. I'm jealous of your being able to touch a tomb so old. In Australia our only artifacts older than 200 years are Aboriginal, and whilst fascinating in their own right aren't allowed to be touched due to their fragility.

You just need to get yourselves an overseas empire and then steal other peoples.

Yeah, we're trying, but so far all we get is sand.

[MARVIN_THE_ARVN]

Thats who we keep seeing in all of these places then, first dibs on the artifacts.

[marioslaz]

Well, I can think of it in two ways.

Firstly, if it takes tens of years for the Romans to move 20km against a 'fat and lazy' opponent, then perhaps the Romans weren't all that good .

Secondly, I don't care WHO you are, if you fight for tens of years you're going to get good at fighting .

Ian

P.S. I'm jealous of your being able to touch a tomb so old. In Australia our only artifacts older than 200 years are Aboriginal, and whilst fascinating in their own right aren't allowed to be touched due to their fragility.

I would say a good mix of both. Romans were not always the war machine which all remember. In 5th century BC they were just the leader city between Latin people. Etruschi were a great people and in 5th century BC they took up a larger region than Romani (sorry, I don't resist, I cannot write name of Italian people in English ). Now I must go, but I hope this evening (Italian time) to find a little of time to talk about.

To be continued...

P.S. If I find a bit of time in a weekend, and if I weather is good, I try to get a picture of the tomb.

[marioslaz]

Hey, I don't want to make a lesson. I'm not enough educated about Etruschi. If someone knows anything about I will be glad to read.

I don't know too much about Etruschi Army. I know they adopted a phalanx style like many others Italian people. I know they enlisted people on census basis, and people had to get their armament by them own. This is very similar to Romani in the era of kings. Nothing to wonder: they were neighbours so is natural they uses could influence each other. The peculiarity of Etruschi Army (ehi, it's strange saxon genitive with a mix of Italian and English word, isn't it?) was that they put on first line better armoured warriors, and in the last lighter one (I mean in the same BG). It's something similar to Egyptian phalanx of Tolomei dynasty (not sure I write correct) where only first lines were armed and the men in the last lines were just there to give more consistence to the formation (not sure also to remember well the historical situation). I don't know if also Romani used this kind of formation during the kings era, but it can be plausible. When Romani turned toward the pilum, also Etruschi adopted it, but I don't know exactly the date. I suppose in 4th century after Veio fall.
There is a characteristic of Italian territory in Lazio and Toscana which surely had a role. The terren it's not right for phalanx, because you have no plain, but rolling hills. When armies started to grow in number, it was certainly difficult to deploy all troops in such territory. This could have had a role in the born of Romani standard deploy system on three rows (but I think this set up were used only against smaller army). In this contest become difficult to deploy phalanx and use some of them in reserve, because phalanx have problems to manoeuvre and to exchange front line BG with reserve ones in a such terrain it's hard to do. In this terrain works better small units like manipoli armed with pilum.

To be continued ...

[DaiSho]

When Romani turned toward the pilum, also Etruschi adopted it, but I don't know exactly the date. I suppose in 4th century after Veio fall.

I'm not sure, but I think it could be the other way around. When the Etruscans went to the Pilum the Romans adopted it also. I'm not fully conversant in this period, but I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that the Pilum was an Etruscan invention.

Ian

[marioslaz]

I'm not sure, but I think it could be the other way around. When the Etruscans went to the Pilum the Romans adopted it also. I'm not fully conversant in this period, but I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that the Pilum was an Etruscan invention.

Ian

You are right. We don't know exactly, but there are some archaeological evidence about. I'm not sure, because I don't remember well, but I think it is an archaeological found at Tarquinia, an Etrusca city in Lazio, the region of Roma. This can suggest there was a strong interaction between Romani and Etruschi in development of new weapons. As I said in a previous post, I think this development has been a slow process where each people looked at their neighbourhood and copied trying to improve.
Anyway, when I speak of pilum armed troops I don't refer to weapon itself, but to troops armed and proficient with pilum. In game terms, you cane have pilum armed troops classified as light spear or impact foot (if you look at one my previous post I classified so early republican Roman hastati). Pilum itself it's not a terrifying weapon, otherwise all people who met in battle pilum armed troops would have had convert to pilum. I think to this as a game plan in a sport. Think to football (I mean European football). You can think that a 4-3-3 is the best scheme, but you have not the players to perform it in a proficient way, so you must use a 5-3-2 or whatever else (I'm not a great expert of football indeed, I know better American football because I played it, but I suppose in this forum European football is better known). If you born in a society where people use bow and ride horses, it would be very difficult you could think to use pilum.
Returning to the problem to be proficient with pilum, as I said pilum itself it's not enough. Scutum and short sword are also a must. Round shields are perfect if you want build a wall shield, but if you want to throw a javelin they impair a lot; it's better an oval shield like scutum. If you use scutum, you can protect better yourself because oval form better fit to human body, but you cannot interlock your shield with those of your friends. This means your formation become more individualistic, you don't rely on formation, instead you rely on individual skill. For this reason you need a weapon like a short sword, that don't need a great exposition of the man it's using it, like instead the spear. In this way a warrior can protect himself with his shield and use his weapon whenever he has the opportunity, a fight scheme impossible to achieve with a long spear. And about the slow process of developing to go from hoplite to legionario, the gladio is an Hispanic weapon that has been introduced in period of Mario (if I remember well). So you can see how much change you must introduce to obtain superior, impact foot, swordsmen troops of the FoG lists.

[nikgaukroger]

I think the whole thing is rather murky to be honest.

I'm inclined to the view, as suggested at least in some Roman sources, that the pilum and maniple tactics came in around the time if the wars with the Samnites - so the second half of the C4thBC. Livy and IIRC Plutarch, however, seem to see it as a result of Camillus aroud the start of the C4th - on the other hand this could be just ascribing a change to a famous name and Livy at least is a bit anachronistic about stuff in his earlier books.

[simone]

Mirliton sells a book on the period Gli Eserciti Etruschi IX-IV sec ( Etruscan Armies) Ivo Fossati, Historica Ed.

[marioslaz]

I think the whole thing is rather murky to be honest.

I'm inclined to the view, as suggested at least in some Roman sources, that the pilum and maniple tactics came in around the time if the wars with the Samnites - so the second half of the C4thBC. Livy and IIRC Plutarch, however, seem to see it as a result of Camillus aroud the start of the C4th - on the other hand this could be just ascribing a change to a famous name and Livy at least is a bit anachronistic about stuff in his earlier books.

It could be. Nobody knows exactly and there are a lot of theory about. Many theory are compatibles, because could refer to different stage of the evolution of Romani warfare from Hoplon to Scutum.
I talked about Camillo (I suppose you refer to Furio Camillo) a couple of years ago with one friend, who graduated in history. He told me modern historian have more than a doubt about his story as told by Tito Livio. In effect, if you read Livio you will find Camillo lived enough events for 2 or 3 lives . Likely a such men existed, but he made just only some of deed Livio attributed him, and the other were accomplished by different people.

[marioslaz]

Mirliton sells a book on the period Gli Eserciti Etruschi IX-IV sec ( Etruscan Armies) Ivo Fossati, Historica Ed.

What is this? A spot?

[marioslaz]

P.S. If I find a bit of time in a weekend, and if I weather is good, I try to get a picture of the tomb.

I found a bit of time to go in our city greater park ("Giardini Margherita") and I got some picture of the tomb with the help of my older son.
This is a picture of the Tomb. Sorry, a little out of focus.



This is a picture where I touch the tomb. Can you imagine the feeling to have under my finger an artifact 2500 years old (sorry, in a previous post I exaggerated and I dated it 3500 years old )

[philqw78]

Wow, something 2500 years old you can touch and let the kids climb on.

In this country you wouldn't be allowed within 500m (meters for the imperialistic). Unless you had made up a religion, claimed it had been around for 2500 years, and practised it at the wrong time of year. Or ...... best I stop

[DaiSho]

Wow, something 2500 years old you can touch and let the kids climb on.

In this country you wouldn't be allowed within 500m (meters for the imperialistic). Unless you had made up a religion, claimed it had been around for 2500 years, and practised it at the wrong time of year. Or ...... best I stop

Well, in this country if you came across something 2500 years old you'd know its a fake anyway

Ian

[caliban66]

In fact, that kind of rock, most of it karstic carbonate (at least is what it looks like from here ) must have been lifted from the sea during the last Alpine "crunch" (I don´t know the exact geologic term in english), a dozens of millions years ago. The masonry on it is only 2500 years old, less than a microdot in the time line. Like all of us, I guess.

[tadamson]

Wow, something 2500 years old you can touch and let the kids climb on.

In this country you wouldn't be allowed within 500m (meters for the imperialistic). Unless you had made up a religion, claimed it had been around for 2500 years, and practised it at the wrong time of year. Or ...... best I stop

There are 5500 year old buildings in Caithness that you can touch and even crawl into, with the approval of the authorities. (you do have to cross a peat bog to get there, which rather deters any vandalism).

Tom..

[Redpossum]

Wow, something 2500 years old you can touch and let the kids climb on.

In this country you wouldn't be allowed within 500m (meters for the imperialistic). Unless you had made up a religion, claimed it had been around for 2500 years, and practised it at the wrong time of year. Or ...... best I stop

Well, in this country if you came across something 2500 years old you'd know its a fake anyway

Ian

Not entirely true, assuming you're American.

Here in San Diego county, out in the Anza-Borrego Desert State Park, there were cave paintings, known by their Spanish name of Los Mortaderos, and generally dated to roughly 1000 BC.

Unfortunately, they were accessible to the public, and totally unmonitored by authority. Somewhere in the early 1990's, a group of unknown vandals with cans of spraypaint covered most of the paintings with graffitti. In a typically American case of "closing the barn door after the cow is gone", the cave has now been blocked off and is not accessible to anyone, with or without permission.

I guess that's life in the post-literate age, (especially here in the Great Republic); we have met the New Barbarians, and they are us. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.