13th/14th Century Siena and Florence

[cpt_safety]

I'm ordering FoG and the Storm of Arrows book in the coming week. I want to build Siena and Florence armies in medieval Italy. Will I find the appropriate lists in the Arrows book? I need to order minis, too and I'd like to make sure I get starter armies right. Looking forward to the game. I'll later branch out to Roman vs Asterix (and other Gauls) later in the year.

-Bill

[grahambriggs]

I'm ordering FoG and the Storm of Arrows book in the coming week. I want to build Siena and Florence armies in medieval Italy. Will I find the appropriate lists in the Arrows book? I need to order minis, too and I'd like to make sure I get starter armies right. Looking forward to the game. I'll later branch out to Roman vs Asterix (and other Gauls) later in the year.

-Bill

Yes, Italian Condotta is in that book. I'm particularly fond of the Mirliton figures for that period - they have a great range.

[marioslaz]

I'm ordering FoG and the Storm of Arrows book in the coming week. I want to build Siena and Florence armies in medieval Italy. Will I find the appropriate lists in the Arrows book? I need to order minis, too and I'd like to make sure I get starter armies right. Looking forward to the game. I'll later branch out to Roman vs Asterix (and other Gauls) later in the year.

-Bill

Do you want to play in tournament or you have in mind some campaigns? I ask you because the list cover a period very large (from 1320 to 1500, that is from Castruccio Castracani to Ludovico il Moro) and so the decision about what miniatures to buy can be influenced a lot. Siena (thanks you didn't write Sienna which is awful for me) in this period is under the control of Firenze (Florence) so you can paint some BGs of Senese army (Senese = of Siena) as part of Fiorentino army (Fiorentino = of Florence). If you tell me more about your intentions I can be more accurate.

I agree with the suggestion of Mirlinton.

[rbodleyscott]

Storm of Arrows cover the 14th century armies, but 13th century armies would be covered by the Communal Italian list in "Oath of Fealty"

[cpt_safety]

Thanks for your suggestions. I found Mirliton a few days ago and a few distributors in the US.

I'm not much of a tournament guy. I was looking at Mirliton's Italian Communal line. I'd like to set up armies more for the 13th century - before Siena was under the control of Firenze [dang plagues]. Battle of Montaperti - 1260, etc. Does that help?

One of the US distributors of Mirliton has DBA ready army packs for both this period and the 14th century. I have only glanced at these online, but is there a comparison between DBA and FoG in terms of lists?

Thanks,
Bill

[cpt_safety]

Storm of Arrows cover the 14th century armies, but 13th century armies would be covered by the Communal Italian list in "Oath of Fealty"

I don't see that on the web site. Is that an upcoming title?

[marioslaz]

Thanks for your suggestions. I found Mirliton a few days ago and a few distributors in the US.

I'm not much of a tournament guy. I was looking at Mirliton's Italian Communal line. I'd like to set up armies more for the 13th century - before Siena was under the control of Firenze [dang plagues]. Battle of Montaperti - 1260, etc. Does that help?

One of the US distributors of Mirliton has DBA ready army packs for both this period and the 14th century. I have only glanced at these online, but is there a comparison between DBA and FoG in terms of lists?

Thanks,
Bill

OK, so I can suggest an high percentage of knights, because infantry has still an ambiguous role: foot troops started to specialize (see for example the battle of Fossalta where Bolognesi infantry has been decisive to the victory over imperial army of Re Enzo) but good infantry is still rare. I know in Siena army there was a company of Montalcino (colours black and white) which got some notorieties, but I must confess I know better today's Montalcino wine than medieval's infantry company. I hope to spend a weekend in Montalcino next spring. OK, I'm going OT. Anyway, in ancient chronicles you found that usually armies of that period were of hundreds to some thousands men, with majority of cavalry. Sometimes army were of ten thousands, with a great number of infantry. I suspect that in these cases infantry were poor one. I must go now, if you give me more info, like what kind of strategical rules do you plan to use, I can help you more.

[david53]

Just was wondering seeing you are explaining about Italian armies, just wondered if you had any infomation with regard to the papal army late 15th century 1490 0nwards to 1500.
Dave

[philqw78]

for cpt_safety (odd name) yes oath of fealty is out soon

[rbodleyscott]

Storm of Arrows cover the 14th century armies, but 13th century armies would be covered by the Communal Italian list in "Oath of Fealty"

I don't see that on the web site. Is that an upcoming title?

Yes

[MarkSieber]

There was an earlier discussion thread about Italian heraldry, which might be of interest:

viewtopic.php?t=5761

[marioslaz]

Just was wondering seeing you are explaining about Italian armies, just wondered if you had any infomation with regard to the papal army late 15th century 1490 0nwards to 1500.
Dave

It's not my favourite period (I like more 1300-1400) but I can found some information. I use to read some Italian site very interesting, but all just in Italian language and all without figures. Anyway, I look to the sites in links indicated in the thread linked in a previous post and some are very good for heraldry. I'm in particular impressed by http://www.krigsspil.dk/ with a lot of flags from my city (Bologna) very accurate, but unfortunately for you of a period different (before 1300 since that flags are from Bologna of mid 1200). Pay attention also that some family name are wrong (especially in the index).

From http://www.condottieridiventura.it I found these battles:

SORIANO 1497. Papacy: Light Horse (number unknown, but likely 200-300) 800 lanzichenecchi (I cannot found an English translation). Some condottieri of papal army present to the battle: Giovanni Borgia, Fabrizio Colonna, Giampiero Gonzaga, Giorgio di Kirsperger (died)
MONTECELIO 1498: No info about armies, just casualties (800 men from each army). Condottieri: many from Colonna family, Antonello Savelli (died) Giovambattista Caracciolo.
CALMAZZO 1502. Papacy: 100 Men-at-arms (knight) 200 light horse 500 foot. Condottieri: Michelotto Coreglia, Bartolomeo da Capranica (died), Ugo di Moncada, Giovanni da Sassatello, Pietro Ludovico Borgia
VAL DI LAMONE 1509. Papacy 4000 men (no more info). Condottieri: Giampaolo Baglioni, Ludovico della Mirandola. Note: papacy army should be comprised of just foot, because they fled from Veneziano army (Veneziano = of Venice) that comprised just 125 men-at-arms 250 light horse and 800 foot.
RUSSI 1509. About battle we know just it was an Ambush. Condottieri: Francesco Maria della Rovere, Filippo Doria, Chiappino Vitelli, Giovanni Vitelli, Coletto Albanese.
SANTERNO 1511. Papacy+Venice: 400/500 light horse 4000/5000 foot (but French fonts say: 200 Spanish men-at-arms, 500 light horse, 5000/6000 foot with 6 artillery pieces; but French are the adversary in the battle and they could exaggerated a little... they are use to it, expecially when they lose ). Condottieri: Antonio Orfeo da Carinola, Giovanni Forti, Giovanni Moro, Vardejo (died), Bernardo Macarone.
RAVENNA 1512. Spain+Papacy+Venice: 1700 men-at-arms, 1500 light horse, 13500 foot (9000 Spanish, 2000 Italians, rest Germans). Condottieri: Orsini, Colonna, Gonzaga and a lot of others.

I hope this helps.

[cpt_safety]

Thanks for all of your insights. When I'm ready to place a miniature order, I'll consult again with you if Oath of Fealty is not out yet. BTW, it's not on the preorder lists on the Osprey web site yet.

Thanks,
Bill

[sergiomonteleone]

Thanks for your suggestions. I found Mirliton a few days ago and a few distributors in the US.

I'm not much of a tournament guy. I was looking at Mirliton's Italian Communal line. I'd like to set up armies more for the 13th century - before Siena was under the control of Firenze [dang plagues]. Battle of Montaperti - 1260, etc. Does that help?

One of the US distributors of Mirliton has DBA ready army packs for both this period and the 14th century. I have only glanced at these online, but is there a comparison between DBA and FoG in terms of lists?

Thanks,
Bill

Hi Bill,
me too I suggest Mirlinton, I have them (for Communal and Condottieri armies and they are great).
Mirlinton sell also very good flags (for example they have all the flags of Montaperti battle).
Condottieri isn't one of my favourite army (i prefer Kn superior) but I've played a lot of time against one of my friend: my suggest is to use a lot of Stradiots (Venetian period), 3/ 4 BG's of Kn and 4 TC. I guess it's better without footmen.
Sergio

[grahambriggs]

Thanks for your suggestions. I found Mirliton a few days ago and a few distributors in the US.

I'm not much of a tournament guy. I was looking at Mirliton's Italian Communal line. I'd like to set up armies more for the 13th century - before Siena was under the control of Firenze [dang plagues]. Battle of Montaperti - 1260, etc. Does that help?

One of the US distributors of Mirliton has DBA ready army packs for both this period and the 14th century. I have only glanced at these online, but is there a comparison between DBA and FoG in terms of lists?

Thanks,
Bill

Bill,

They're bound to be similar yet different. The main problem is though that DBA is just 12 bases whereas FOG satrter armies will be much more than that. If you were to buy multiple DBA armies you'd miss the variety in the Mirliton range. www.mirliton.it shows you the range plus the excellent paint jobs by the owner.

I used 28mm Mirliton for my 1298 Battle of Worringen Holy Roman empire army (OK bit of a stretch) and the variety of mounted figures worked really well. Plus they have fun items like the Carroccios - not entirely sure what I'll do with my three in FoG though

[nikgaukroger]

Plus they have fun items like the Carroccios - not entirely sure what I'll do with my three in FoG though

The camp?

[sergiomonteleone]

Plus they have fun items like the Carroccios - not entirely sure what I'll do with my three in FoG though

The camp?

Hi Nik,
regarding 28mm Mirlinton sells a very good diorama kits for Medieval Armies (http://www.mirliton.it/product_info.php ... orama-kits). Unlikely they didn't planned to make the same for 15mm.
Sergio

[cpt_safety]

I'm going to contact Mirliton and start assembling a 15mm Communal Italian starter army and some of those paper flags. I'm going to pre-order Oath of Fealty from Amazon this weekend. Is there something I should focus on with my starter army or maybe some combination that I should avoid.

I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that if I loosely follow some of the proportions of troop types in some accounts of the actual battle. I'll be close enough to the lists that come out later. I can later fill out where needed when the formal lists come out. I don't have to worry about someone in a tournament throwing dice at me for an informal list. I won't be participating in a tournament.

Any additional advice would be welcome.

Thanks,
Bill

[agorfein1]

Condottieri isn't one of my favourite army (i prefer Kn superior) but I've played a lot of time against one of my friend: my suggest is to use a lot of Stradiots (Venetian period), 3/ 4 BG's of Kn and 4 TC. I guess it's better without footmen.
Sergio

I used to run the Condottieri pretty successfully in DBM (though it required a very strange command structure) and have only recently run it in FOG, but so far I like it. I recently finished 4th of 12 at a local tournament without much practice with the FOG version of the army.

I think you may be making a mistake by trying to run it without foot in FOG. I ran Venice in Italy with 12 Kn (2x6), 4 groups of light horse (4x4), 12 Italian Pikes, 12 Swiss Pikes, and some of the halbadiers and light foot. So far the battle winning units seem to be the pikes. I generally end up with knights and LH on the wings and the pikes making the final decisive effort in the center. I run 4 TC's and each unit of knights always has a general fighting up front in melee. IMO the combination of Pikes, Knights, and LH is difficult for many opponents to deal with. I am also toying with the idea of running the Stradiots as Cv instead of LH to provide more flank support for the knights (or rear support, if necessary) but I haven't made up my mind as to whether it would be better. I'll have to try it and see.

If you really want your superior Kn I would run a Neopolitan army (up to 8 feudal superior kn) with a Venetian ally (for Stradiots and Turks) or an Albanian Ally. The only problem is that you'd have to take 18 Kn to get all of the superior Kn (10 avg, 8 superior).

I, too, am interested in the Communal Italian list. I am curious as to what kind of supporting foot it will get. I really like the look of the Mirliton minis. In fact, I am considering re-doing my entire Condotta army in Mirliton figures (presently my army is all Essex). I just haven't decided if I'm crazy enough yet.

Aaron

[sergiomonteleone]

Condottieri isn't one of my favourite army (i prefer Kn superior) but I've played a lot of time against one of my friend: my suggest is to use a lot of Stradiots (Venetian period), 3/ 4 BG's of Kn and 4 TC. I guess it's better without footmen.
Sergio

I used to run the Condottieri pretty successfully in DBM (though it required a very strange command structure) and have only recently run it in FOG, but so far I like it. I recently finished 4th of 12 at a local tournament without much practice with the FOG version of the army.

I think you may be making a mistake by trying to run it without foot in FOG. I ran Venice in Italy with 12 Kn (2x6), 4 groups of light horse (4x4), 12 Italian Pikes, 12 Swiss Pikes, and some of the halbadiers and light foot. So far the battle winning units seem to be the pikes. I generally end up with knights and LH on the wings and the pikes making the final decisive effort in the center. I run 4 TC's and each unit of knights always has a general fighting up front in melee. IMO the combination of Pikes, Knights, and LH is difficult for many opponents to deal with. I am also toying with the idea of running the Stradiots as Cv instead of LH to provide more flank support for the knights (or rear support, if necessary) but I haven't made up my mind as to whether it would be better. I'll have to try it and see.

If you really want your superior Kn I would run a Neopolitan army (up to 8 feudal superior kn) with a Venetian ally (for Stradiots and Turks) or an Albanian Ally. The only problem is that you'd have to take 18 Kn to get all of the superior Kn (10 avg, 8 superior).

I, too, am interested in the Communal Italian list. I am curious as to what kind of supporting foot it will get. I really like the look of the Mirliton minis. In fact, I am considering re-doing my entire Condotta army in Mirliton figures (presently my army is all Essex). I just haven't decided if I'm crazy enough yet.

Aaron

Hi Aaron,
me too I'm very interested in Communal Italian. Unlikely, even if it was my favourite army considering miniatures, in DBM it wasn't very good. I'm waiting for the book relative to Feudal Armies to check in FoG.
Regarding supporting, I guess Pavesari with Crossbomen.
I'm looking for using all my barded Kn's with Mirlinton flags.
Generally speaking I guess a BG with 6 Kn's is very hard to manouvre. But your combination for Condotta seems to work it.
When my friend decided to use only Kn, LH and LF improuve the quality of the army. But it's necessary to manouvre very well Stradiots and to deploy in the right place Kn's.
Sergio