'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' - Red Star Review and Discuss

[CoolDTA]

Good advice there, Bru. Some personal views:

1) In this DLC I gladly use RPs for aux conscripts and regulars because they cost so little and you get a 50% refund. Was it sthg like 5 RPs (= 2.5 net) for 5 str pts for conscripts. It's a bargain! Don't upgrade units unless it makes sense is one of the best advice in OoB. Also consider upgrade paths. Some units don't have any.

2) Strategic bombers are especially useful in this DLC because the early Soviet tac bombers are rather bad.

4) Play smart - definitely. Do only what is required to fulfil the objectives and don't rush needlessly. Just like Bru is playing better, I have changed my style also. I use all the turns available and advance cautiously thereby minimizing damage to my core units. In defensive missions I try to do only that.

But why would anybody want to play Red Star one scenario at a time? I think we can all agree that Spike is a weird dude. (Just kidding, Spike! )

OoB surely deserves someone who takes care of the single mission players - whether there are any others than him or not.

Nice trophy, Spike!

[bru888]

..I think we can all agree that Spike is a weird dude. (Just kidding, Spike! )

Yes mate, my dad used to say I was nutty, but amazingly I've somehow been muddling through and topping online wargaming leagues for the past 17 years and picked up this hallowed 6" trophy on the way, it sits on its own small table in my living room, carefully positioned so that it's the first thing guests see when they arrive, and I can keep steering the conversation towards it during the course of the evening..

Just because one is weird doesn't make one less of a warrior! Indeed, perhaps weirdness might make one more of a warrior, maybe like a berserker, you know? But since you and I don't play head-to-head, to me you remain lovably weird; so much so that it makes me want to [sniffle].

Good advice there, Bru. Some personal views:

1) In this DLC I gladly use RPs for aux conscripts and regulars because they cost so little and you get a 50% refund. Was it sthg like 5 RPs (= 2.5 net) for 5 str pts for conscripts. It's a bargain! Don't upgrade units unless it makes sense is one of the best advice in OoB. Also consider upgrade paths. Some units don't have any.

2) Strategic bombers are especially useful in this DLC because the early Soviet tac bombers are rather bad.

4) Play smart - definitely. Do only what is required to fulfil the objectives and don't rush needlessly. Just like Bru is playing better, I have changed my style also. I use all the turns available and advance cautiously thereby minimizing damage to my core units. In defensive missions I try to do only that.

Thanks. Yeah, I was kind of thinking (typing) out loud in the flush of victory. Sort of a personal pep talk (and I should bookmark it for future reference). But reading your comments introduces one last tip that I want to remember:

5) Be flexible. While those principles 1) through 4) are generally applicable, they may not be specifically applicable to all circumstances. Don't be afraid to be unorthodox if the situation calls for it.

[PoorOldSpike]

Just because one is weird doesn't make one less of a warrior! Indeed, perhaps weirdness might make one more of a warrior, maybe like a berserker, you know?..

You got it mate; thinking outside the box is what confounds the enemy because he can never predict what we're going to do..
I drill 3 key doctrines into my wargame recruits-
1- "Play with your brain first and your weapons second"
2- "Never fear to use insanely-overwhelming firepower, let the fear be your enemies"
3- "FORGET what you've seen in hollywood war films and play YOUR way: "When you're in command, COMMAND"- Adm Chester Nimitz

PS- as for playing standalone scenarios, I like them because they're fast to play, rather than getting bogged down in campaigns, for example I've only had Red Star for about a week and have already finished 11 of its standalones, won 9, lost 2..

[bru888]

Summa 40

I have been humbled.

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I came close - I was closing in on Summa and had only one bunker to go - but I ran out of time and strength. I also was too cautious, perhaps. I concentrated on the two secondary objectives while I left my center static (it is mostly comprised of useless conscripts). Due to the vast distances and the darned forests (Erik and makigono1, you are right: "roads [should] be used as roads regardless of the terrain underneath (maybe except water)"), I could not get to Summa fast enough with my two wings of core units.

But these are excuses. I lost because I did not play well enough. How close I came (on middle difficulty) is again an indication of gameplay balance. It could have gone either way and if I played this one again, I think I could beat it.

However, rather than going through this again , I prefer to go back a beginning of Turn 24 save and do a CTRL+C #overtime for more turns. Sure it's cheating but I want to see what happens if I fall back, regroup, and come at them again. Let's see how many turns I will need!

[bru888]

Let's see how many turns I will need!

Four more turns. I took Summa and demolished the fortress on Turn 28:

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Now, here's the deal. If I had replayed this scenario, I probably would have won (with hindsight) and my forces would have been in better shape. Instead, I "cheated" but . . . is it really? I pushed to finish the scenario as fast as I could; i.e., I did not linger to build up resources and repair my units. I have very few resources at the end and my core units are in sad shape to start the next scenario, Viipuri.

Heh, rather than cheating, I have actually handicapped myself. A noble sacrifice in tribute to the integrity of this game! (How's that for rationalizing? )

[PoorOldSpike]

I just got a win in Yelnya




Very straightforward, the white line was the start line and I deployed in the circles, then simply steamrollered through the only two objectives I needed, and easily defended against his probes at the other 3 objs (out of this shot) which I held at the start.
The briefing said jerry didn't have many tanks, so I bought 6 BT-7A's because they're good against infantry and can switch between direct and indirect fire (range 3) and they performed excellently, softening up jerry infantry positions one by one with concentrated bombardments, and my infantry were able to easily go in and mop them up because the enemy pose very little threat if they're mush...



My stats are now Played-12, Won-10, Lost- 2
(vanilla standalone scens / med difficulty)
Lake Khasan- Vict
Summa 39- Vict
Rostov- Vict
Khalkin Gol jap attack- Vict
Viipuri- Defeat
Smolensk- Defeat
Grodno- Vict
Khalkin Gol Zhukov- Vict
Raseiniai- Vict
Karelia- Vict
Summa 40- Vict
Yelnya- Vict

PS- my worst defeat was more of an annihilation than a defeat, I lost ALL - repeat ALL- my units (including a fleet of T-34's) in 'Smolensk', THE AI BEAT ME!!!

[CoolDTA]

However, rather than going through this again , I prefer to go back a beginning of Turn 24 save and do a CTRL+C #overtime for more turns. Sure it's cheating but I want to see what happens if I fall back, regroup, and come at them again. Let's see how many turns I will need!

Lets see:

Cheat (verb)
1. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

Absolutely no advantage gained, so it is not cheating. And Bru acting dishonestly or unfairly - humbug, I say.

There's a real dilemma here. If you go forward with this, there might very well be some difficulties not in the next battle, but when Barbarossa starts. But after such a hard won battle to do it all over again... tough decision. I'm currently somewhat over the halfway point in the first Barbarossa scen i.e. Rasenai. While I'm confident I will win it, it has been too costly to my liking. I really should follow my own advice and not be too aggressive. An obvious tip for the battle: don't be. Bide your time.

Really looking forward how you will do in the following struggles.

(Erik and makigono1, you are right: "roads [should] be used as roads regardless of the terrain underneath (maybe except water)")

I wholeheartedly agree. Roads are there to facilitate movement. As of now, the roads in mountains and dense forests in OoB are sights for tourists and not of any practical use. Couldn't there simply be a terrain tile (or three) mountain w/road accessible to all units? Wouldn't change how roads function otherwise in game. Hmm, this probably has been discussed already.

[CoolDTA]

I just got a win in Yelnya

Nice win! Looks like the only battle missing is Moscow. After that you have essentially played the campaign. Well, in your original style anyway.

[GabeKnight]

Here's one to tease Bruce a bit...

Khalkin Gol - Zhukov's Strike, level 4 difficulty, first time played.

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I've started the Red Star campaign at middle difficulty, but switched to level4 after the second mission, because it was just too easy. You can't compare this to Endsieg, which could pose a challenge even on middle difficulty.
Too much RP here. Even though I don't share Andy's non-elite-repair-policy at all. All units perform way better with more experience, it's a must for me.

Below's my deployment for Summa '40:

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[CoolDTA]

Hi Gabe, thought you lost your way in the forests and swamps of Finland.

Too much RP here. Even though I don't share Andy's non-elite-repair-policy at all. All units perform way better with more experience, it's a must for me.

Definiteley agree with them repairs. Also probably with the RPs also, though Rasenai sure consumed a lot of them. Then again it was because a) my poor playing and b) the whole army was upgraded. I quickly peeked what's the situation in the next scen and there are no upgrades to do except my single para-unit nor anything to buy 'cause I can't deploy all I already have. So if the RP usage stabilizes then it will imo be the same as in previous dlcs (Endsieg included) i.e. the amount of RPs awarded is very generous.

Of course you're a much better player than I am so there's that.

[PoorOldSpike]

People are on the pitch, they think it's all over! It is now..
Just won Moscow the 13th and final battle of Red Star DLC!
(Won 11, lost 2)




I reverted to my unspeakable habit of buying a fleet of 7x T-34's and split them to tackle the jerry northern and southern pincers and it went like clockwork, I butchered his armoured spearheads by ganging up on them in a feeding frenzy, then simply counterattacked westward.
This exciting message came up around turn 14 (of 30) as jerry began drunkenly reeling from loss of blood-



For the record my final stats are Played-13, Won-11, Lost- 2
(vanilla standalone scens / med difficulty)
Lake Khasan- Vict
Summa 39- Vict
Rostov- Vict
Khalkin Gol jap attack- Vict
Viipuri- Defeat
Smolensk- Defeat
Grodno- Vict
Khalkin Gol Zhukov- Vict
Raseiniai- Vict
Karelia- Vict
Summa 40- Vict
Yelnya- Vict
Moscow- Vict

PS- as far as I know the AI opponent doesn't use Elite replacements, so I don't either because I want to keep it a level playing field..
PS again- in all 13 scens I never noticed any bugs or glitches of any kind..

[GabeKnight]

Hi Gabe, thought you lost your way in the forests and swamps of Finland.

Yeah, I took a little R&R with them OoB graphics being broken after the last patch. But as you covered the questions in the Steam forums and Bruce and Spike the forums here, there was really no need for me to post anything...

[...] though Rasenai sure consumed a lot of them.

Holy shit, yeah. I've also heavily underestimated the German push forward. My wallet was completely empty by turn 8-ish...
In return, the attacking German units were almost completely annihilated by the end. And I've nearly got to destroy the K18 with my ground troops...

But it's like you said, nothing new to buy in the next scen, and you can spend the whole cash on repairs. And as I tend to repair my aux. units also, I'll get quite a lot of RPs back due to the "refund" mechanic.

[CoolDTA]

Yeah, I took a little R&R with them OoB graphics being broken after the last patch. But as you covered the questions in the Steam forums and Bruce and Spike the forums here, there was really no need for me to post anything...

Thanks. Gotta keep the new OoB-players at Steam happy, so the devs get paid and we get more content.

But it's like you said, nothing new to buy in the next scen, and you can spend the whole cash on repairs. And as I tend to repair my aux. units also, I'll get quite a lot of RPs back due to the "refund" mechanic.

I repair my aux units, too, and like I said in one of the earlier posts it is very cheap in this DLC. I'd say it saves RPs because your highly starred core units take so much less damage when aux units are around for a longer time.

Like I suspected in the next scen (Smolensk) the RP usage stabilizes and it is an easier battle anyway. It almost invites you to clean the map.

[CoolDTA]

PS- as far as I know the AI opponent doesn't use Elite replacements, so I don't either because I want to keep it a level playing field..

Well, the playing field is level either way, because elites are more expensive to both players, so you just get less of them. Probably better the AI is not given a chance to buy them or it might use all its RPs to repair one or two units and that might have unfortunate consequences.

Well done in "Campaign By Spike"! Do you think you'll play those two battles again anytime soon?

[PoorOldSpike]

..Do you think you'll play those two battles again anytime soon?

Well my 'Viipuri' defeat would have been a victory if I'd had one more turn and I'll have another crack at it in the future, but my humiliating defeat in 'Smolensk' sticks in my craw because I lost ALL - repeat- ALL my units and I'm shell-shocked and am itching to give jerry payback real soon.
What should I do Rick?

"Play it again kid"

[CoolDTA]

Such a great movie. Just follow Rick's advice and give jerry a taste of his own medicine.

[GabeKnight]

Like I suspected in the next scen (Smolensk) the RP usage stabilizes and it is an easier battle anyway. It almost invites you to clean the map.

Easier yes, but it seems that I just suck with defensive scenarios. I'm still unable to sit back and do nothing. There's always the urge to attack and kill something...
The Tabulae Rasae are difficult with empty wallets and tight turn limits.
Although the AI aggression must have been very high in Smolensk, because many units kept on attacking with 1-2 HP; basically committing suicide.

And the German airforce's incredibly strong. Like the early US planes vs. Jap. Zeros. I don't like to deploy AA usually, but here...

Try to never keep any infantry in the open, and on the other hand, tanks are weak against infantry when defending in high cover terrain. Keep them in the open.

[bru888]

Heh: "Your successful breakthrough at Summa has been noted with relief in Moscow." Talk about gilding the lily (see my posts above). It's more like "Well, comrade, at least you've made it this far, barely."

My forces are in bad shape, as I mentioned before. Fortunately, I had upgraded my infantry prior to Summa 40 so now I can concentrate on repairing what I can.

After Summa 40, I definitely feel the need for 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!' In my deployment for Khalkin Gol River - Japanese Attack, I stocked up on some heavy infantry for their defensive prowess. I've been feeling the effects since but it came to a head in Summa 40. Even with the trucks that I provided them, they were infernally SLOW in that climate and terrain.

From this point on, I'm tanking up with tanks. Oh, I'll still have a balanced core - there's a need for every type of unit - but in this campaign I am beginning to believe in 'Tanks, more tanks, Tovarish!'

I will try to accommodate that request. Let's roll to Viipuri.

[PoorOldSpike]

Just got a win in vanilla standalone med difficulty 'Smolensk' at the second attempt but it was a close run thing, I bought 7x T-34's but with an income of only +22 per turn I had to watch my pennies carefully to maintain them..

[bru888]

Viipuri, middle difficulty

I almost despaired of this one halfway through and thought I was going to have to replay it. However, once the Finnish armored attack was broken, I resumed my tactics of picking off Finnish units one by one. Once the secondary objectives were won, then it was a race to Viipuri (although there still was a flank attack late in the scenario that fortunately I was able to meet and destroy before it cut off any supply).

One thing though: Soviet fighters in this scenario so far are not worth the canvas and wood that they are made of. I did not enjoy air superiority at any time in this game; my aces were on the ground early on and there were insufficient resources to repair their aircraft. Indeed, I am looking to upgrade them for Barbarossa? I hope so. Fortunately, I was able to space my bombers around so as to keep them relatively healthy and effective.

So, while I did suffer from lack of resources in Viipuri, I had enough to get a victory. The two additional BT-7 tanks that I purchased made a difference, as I speculated above.

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