Drilled skirmishers

HannibalBarca · Post by **HannibalBarca** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:22 am

I noticed a few troop types, all light foot or light horse, being noted as "Drilled or Undrilled" in the 'Immortal Fire' army lists. This made me think about it and does it make any difference? They are skirmishers anyway for move categorisation and CMTs so does the training status of any LH/LF have a bearing on their use, or is it just added for completeness? (If not, what have I missed

)

p.s. This is for BGs of sole LF, I can see there would be a point if they go halfs/thirds with MF or HF as then they're not skirmishers anymore.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:36 am

You are correct in all respects. It's for completeness.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:39 am

I believe that there is a tiny difference between drilled and undrilled skimishers. If you are moving a BL including drilled BWg or Art and other troops it the other troops include undrilled skirmishers it might make a difference.

Essentially there is no difference between drilled and undrilled skirmishers.

HannibalBarca · Post by **HannibalBarca** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:24 pm

Cheers.

Are you sure on that tiny difference Hammy? I had a re-read on the section because you'd mentioned it, and it seems a battle-line tests on its worst possible move column (Simple/Complex). But light foot/light horse are still skirmishers even if in a battle-line (only being in a battle group with other types would prevent them from being). And skirmishers always have simple advances, drilled or not. Isn't that right?

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:06 pm

Isn't there a potential difference between drilled and undrilled skirmishers with regard to flank marches? I think undrilled troops are more likely to be straggling.

I do not have the rulebook handy right now, so I throw that out there for anyone who wants to check it.

Marc

footslogger · Post by **footslogger** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:07 pm

Drilled or skirmishers get the benefit against straggling during a flank march.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:48 pm

HannibalBarca wrote:Cheers.

Are you sure on that tiny difference Hammy? I had a re-read on the section because you'd mentioned it, and it seems a battle-line tests on its worst possible move column (Simple/Complex). But light foot/light horse are still skirmishers even if in a battle-line (only being in a battle group with other types would prevent them from being). And skirmishers always have simple advances, drilled or not. Isn't that right?

Not sure but BWg and Art have to make a CMT to move at all and if part of a BL including the WWg or Art is undrilled it might have an impact. I am really not sure and as I rarely use Art or BWg I have to say I have not studied it in a lot of detail.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:08 pm

hammy wrote:
HannibalBarca wrote:Cheers.

Are you sure on that tiny difference Hammy? I had a re-read on the section because you'd mentioned it, and it seems a battle-line tests on its worst possible move column (Simple/Complex). But light foot/light horse are still skirmishers even if in a battle-line (only being in a battle group with other types would prevent them from being). And skirmishers always have simple advances, drilled or not. Isn't that right?
Not sure but BWg and Art have to make a CMT to move at all and if part of a BL including the WWg or Art is undrilled it might have an impact. I am really not sure and as I rarely use Art or BWg I have to say I have not studied it in a lot of detail.

Battle Wagons are all undrilled anyway, so I think it could only make a difference if the BL included Drilled Light Artillery.

There aren't going to be many armies that have Drilled LArt and Undrilled LF. (No prize for anyone who finds one).

Moreover, what would be the point of moving LF in a BL with LArtillery? Even if the BL made a double move, the LF could move faster on their own.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:15 pm

I was only trying to see if I could come up with a difference of any sort. I didn't say that it had to be a significant one....

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:35 am

My copy of the rules has in the CMT table "Drilled or Skirmishers" on one line and "Other Undrilled" on the other. The "Other Undrilled" being of course Undrilled other than Skirmishers.

I thought that was the end of it.

But I see that the argument is that Undrilled LF can have a detrimental effect if they are the rear ranks of a BG that is otherwise comprised of Drilled HF or MF. Since they are defined as Non-Skirmishers if in a mixed BG, the LF are now Other Undrilled and thus drag the BG or BL down to the Other Undrilled line.

It wouldn't matter if the LF were part of an Undrilled Mixed Bg since the Undrillled HF or MF would already spoil the fun.

Is it possible to have 2 different training levels in a single BG? If not, this is a null set issue.

Mike

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:20 am

According to the new book Russ undrilled HF get drilled LF support. I think it might be an error, possibly.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:19 am

philqw78 wrote:According to the new book Russ undrilled HF get drilled LF support. I think it might be an error, possibly.

Yup

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:12 pm

Would one difference between drilled and undrilled Skirmishers be when they try to do the CMT to back up 3 mu? Drilled do it on a 7 and undrilled on an 8. If so, then drilled skirmishers would have a slight advantage in maintaining distance from others and still facing.

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:53 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
philqw78 wrote:According to the new book Russ undrilled HF get drilled LF support. I think it might be an error, possibly.
Yup

Hrrumpff!! I;d just finished re-basing all my Rus psiloi to get identical poses or figures on each base

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:56 pm

BillMc wrote:Would one difference between drilled and undrilled Skirmishers be when they try to do the CMT to back up 3 mu? Drilled do it on a 7 and undrilled on an 8. If so, then drilled skirmishers would have a slight advantage in maintaining distance from others and still facing.

Nope, skirmishers of any sort pass on a 7.

However, to build on another thread, this is best described as LF having to pass a Country Music Test in order to perform a dosey-do (or do-si-do) maneuver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosado

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:39 am

Tim said:
Hrrumpff!! I;d just finished re-basing all my Rus psiloi to get identical poses or figures on each base

ROTFLMAO

[/quote]

Eques · Post by **Eques** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:16 pm

I'd still want to know if they were drilled or undrilled just for completeness.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:00 pm

Eques wrote:I'd still want to know if they were drilled or undrilled just for completeness.

Russ skirmishers are undrilled. It is an error in the book and will be included in the next version of the errata.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:24 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: Battle Wagons are all undrilled anyway, so I think it could only make a difference if the BL included Drilled Light Artillery.

You mean nobody has drilled Battle Wagons? Surely SOMEONE (Italian or Spanish probably) has managed to get bullocks to walk in step.

rbodleyscott wrote: There aren't going to be many armies that have Drilled LArt and Undrilled LF. (No prize for anyone who finds one).

Perhaps one of the Chinese armies, or the Mongol types. But you can have undrilled artillery in FoG can't you? I'm probably casting my mind into the depths of WRG where arty was ALWAYS drilled, so it would crop up more often then.

Ian

shall · Post by **shall** » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:57 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:

Battle Wagons are all undrilled anyway, so I think it could only make a difference if the BL included Drilled Light Artillery.

You mean nobody has drilled Battle Wagons? Surely SOMEONE (Italian or Spanish probably) has managed to get bullocks to walk in step.

I think these appeared around mid 1935 for advanced nations, and around mid 1941 for some slower on the tank uptake like the UK.

Si