Ok, so there I was pouring over the Viking list and I'm trying to come to terms with something.
What is better:
Medium Infantry/Protected/Undrilled/Offensive Spear
-or-
Medium Infantry/Unprotected/Undrilled/Heavy Weapon
Their purpose will be purely to 'take on rough terrain'.
Both will be allies.
So, in an open competition where I'm as likely to take on Henry V as Dailami...
Opinions appreciated, and why you think x are better than y etc
My quick thought is:
Offensive spear are better UNTIL they get disrupted and then they are cactus. Heavy Weapon kind of keep on keeping on, so I'm edging toward the Heavy Weapon, but thinking that going into rough terrain means 'missile troops' so there may be some issues there.
Ian
Spearmen or Heavy Weapon
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Yes, true. I was going to run them in groups of 8, except for the NoBalls and Retainers who would be in a small BG of 4 (dangerous). The other thing is that Unprotected MF is a lot different to Unprotected HF (the only other type of Unprotected foot I've run). The MF have a pretty good chance at catching anyone who is going to shoot at them (except maybe bow armed LH - and I'm unlikely to come across them in the roughScrumpy wrote:People wrote that Pictish unprotected troops faired well in large battlegroups, maybe that could be a way for your HW guys ?
), so the 'enemy' take a risk.Ian
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OldenTired
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go the HW. it fares well versus most troop types. Off.Sp is useless in the rough unless you're fighting swords (i.e. because shock mounted will loose lance anyhow), and if you're fighting swords they're likely to be armoured or protected at least.
as the others say, you'll only need to face missile troops for a turn or so. just make sure you have rear support and an IC. you'll lose the occasional base, but they're almost impossible to disrupt with that +3.
as the others say, you'll only need to face missile troops for a turn or so. just make sure you have rear support and an IC. you'll lose the occasional base, but they're almost impossible to disrupt with that +3.
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PyrrhicVictory
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Here is my assessment-
OffSp: Pro- POA when charged, vs. foot when charging, and vs. non-shock mtd when charging. No sword or skilled sword while steady and + POA just for being spear in Melee. Con- Shock troops.
HeavWeap: Pros- POA versus foot, negates enemy armor POA. Non-Shock troops. Con- No POA vs mtd, skirm, sswd, weak vs. shooting.
Overall, OffSp has more utility, but being able to be lead by the nose can be an issue. Having said that, UnProt, HvyWpn, MF Thracians have one hell of a reputation, being a mother to move out of terrain even versus Sup Roman Aux.
OffSp: Pro- POA when charged, vs. foot when charging, and vs. non-shock mtd when charging. No sword or skilled sword while steady and + POA just for being spear in Melee. Con- Shock troops.
HeavWeap: Pros- POA versus foot, negates enemy armor POA. Non-Shock troops. Con- No POA vs mtd, skirm, sswd, weak vs. shooting.
Overall, OffSp has more utility, but being able to be lead by the nose can be an issue. Having said that, UnProt, HvyWpn, MF Thracians have one hell of a reputation, being a mother to move out of terrain even versus Sup Roman Aux.
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hazelbark
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Re: Spearmen or Heavy Weapon
They are worth more than this. My superior falxmen are pretty handy until the roman legion shows up.DaiSho wrote: Medium Infantry/Unprotected/Undrilled/Heavy Weapon
Their purpose will be purely to 'take on rough terrain'.
Just don't them shot at too much.
If you really ONLY want them for Rough going one group of 6 HW is plenty.
Re: Spearmen or Heavy Weapon
Perhaps, but I like to 'anchor' my flanks with rough terrain, so one on each side, and as you say they can be used for 'more than this'. They are a quick(er) moving troop type, so they can 'fill the hole' when necessary (especially the NoBalls and Retainers) but I think the major limitation of the Viking list is the rough terrain troops, so you have to take something to deal with that, and that's what they are being considered for. If they do more, then that's a bonus.hazelbark wrote:They are worth more than this. My superior falxmen are pretty handy until the roman legion shows up.DaiSho wrote: Medium Infantry/Unprotected/Undrilled/Heavy Weapon
Their purpose will be purely to 'take on rough terrain'.
Just don't them shot at too much.
If you really ONLY want them for Rough going one group of 6 HW is plenty.
I'm actually quite pleased with my list. I think it has a good chance of 'success' but the main problem is going to be against fast moving shooty type cavalry who I will slowly trundle forward on, but not be able to defeat. In this kind of scenario then the Irish will be good to act as rear support and to quickly anchor flanks from troops who 'burst through', but in that role Spearmen would probably be better.
Maybe I need a troop type that is Spearmen when needed and Heavy Weapon when not!
That's one theory at least.
Ian
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flyingcrow
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Thanks for all your feedback.
I'll run them as 'Unprotected HW' for a few games and see how I go. I've actually changed my list a little and now have some light infantry so I can screen them off from shooters.
Trouble is the figures I have are best as 'protected spearmen', but I can always buy some more figures.
Ian
I'll run them as 'Unprotected HW' for a few games and see how I go. I've actually changed my list a little and now have some light infantry so I can screen them off from shooters.
Trouble is the figures I have are best as 'protected spearmen', but I can always buy some more figures
.Ian
I think the choice depends on a number of things:
First, the PoA difference between Heavy Weapon and Off Spear is pretty minimal
If Steady: Offensive Spear is better, it negates swords, lances and gives a PoA versus charging mounted.
If Disrupted: They are pretty similar, although the spear still gives a PoA versus charging mounted.
If Fragements: Heavey weapons clearly superior
This ignores the armor removing affect of heavy weapons. This looks to be important, but it depends on your armor class IMO:
- If you are amored foot, this isn't of much value. There is relatively little heavily armored foot (essentially non in the Dark Ages actually, only the Varangian Guar I believe) so this isn't much good. In an open you might run into heavily armored knights of course, but spear is still probably better (the gain from - a PoA to + a PoA in impact) and you are only worse off in melee is disrupted.
- If you are unprotected or protect this is valuable as you can fight a lot of armored troops.
Terrain looks like it should matter, but effectively it does not:
- Heavy foot in RGo/Uneven are both disrupted so lose 1 per 3, the PoAs for heavy weapons and spears are the same unless the your fragmented.
- Medium foot are unaffected by anything except DGo.
So for armoured heavy foot, it is hard to see a reason to go with heavy weapons over offensive spear given the choice. For protected troops the choice looks more complex.
It is worth noting that something like Norse Irish unprotected heavy weapons (who get the maximum benefit from the armor affect) have a very hard time surviving impact against lance armed mounted (fighting a (--), taking a (-1) for being medium foot in the open already on CTs...)...
First, the PoA difference between Heavy Weapon and Off Spear is pretty minimal
If Steady: Offensive Spear is better, it negates swords, lances and gives a PoA versus charging mounted.
If Disrupted: They are pretty similar, although the spear still gives a PoA versus charging mounted.
If Fragements: Heavey weapons clearly superior
This ignores the armor removing affect of heavy weapons. This looks to be important, but it depends on your armor class IMO:
- If you are amored foot, this isn't of much value. There is relatively little heavily armored foot (essentially non in the Dark Ages actually, only the Varangian Guar I believe) so this isn't much good. In an open you might run into heavily armored knights of course, but spear is still probably better (the gain from - a PoA to + a PoA in impact) and you are only worse off in melee is disrupted.
- If you are unprotected or protect this is valuable as you can fight a lot of armored troops.
Terrain looks like it should matter, but effectively it does not:
- Heavy foot in RGo/Uneven are both disrupted so lose 1 per 3, the PoAs for heavy weapons and spears are the same unless the your fragmented.
- Medium foot are unaffected by anything except DGo.
So for armoured heavy foot, it is hard to see a reason to go with heavy weapons over offensive spear given the choice. For protected troops the choice looks more complex.
It is worth noting that something like Norse Irish unprotected heavy weapons (who get the maximum benefit from the armor affect) have a very hard time surviving impact against lance armed mounted (fighting a (--), taking a (-1) for being medium foot in the open already on CTs...)...
If you go unprotected stay away from any shooters on a three to hit you it will hurt, I've been there.ethan wrote:
It is worth noting that something like Norse Irish unprotected heavy weapons (who get the maximum benefit from the armor affect) have a very hard time surviving impact against lance armed mounted (fighting a (--), taking a (-1) for being medium foot in the open already on CTs...)...
Dave
