Single rank of Spearmen

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:56 pm

Hi All,

I'm not sure if 'Army Design' or 'Rules Questions' is the right place for this, but I'll ask here and we'll see how we go.

I just got my Wolves from the Sea book. Artwork is fantastic and the figurine painting makes me want to build an early British army.

Anyway - I'm dusting off my Vikings and trying to design an army. I've even played a game with a borrowed list from a member of the forum and had a bit of fun with them.

My question has to do with running the Freemen in one rank. If I used my Freemen to 'hold a flank' against skirmishers it is far better economically to use a single rank. If light horse charge we get the same number of dice, but I get an armour bonus so I'll be at an advantage.

So, if I had (for example) 6 Freemen with 3 supporting archers behind with the spearmen in one rank, and keeping a general attached the whole time, how do you think I'd go? Eventually they will probably wind me down, but how long do you think they would last?

The way I see it (I'm probably not thinking of everything).

If they get one dice per file they are going to get 6 dice. Chances are they are going to get 3 hits, which is a test - but only just. I'd get a - for being within 6" of the base edge (presumably) and a ++ for general attached. A 1:6 chance of losing a base.

Anything I'm not thinking about?

Ian

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:54 am

What are you going to do when your recving enough bow fire to take the extra -1 for being within 6 inches? If you're not shutting down the flank by being close to it, whats the point? Being spread out means I can put a ton of bow fire on you, at least 6 dice of lh since you are at least 6 elements wide....

No thank you.

Struggling to put together a quality Viking list. As nice as the Hurscals are they are just too expensive at 12 pts per base, 24 per file.

AngloDanish look ok but will struggle vs most mounted armies...

I'd have to say that this is the first book that I'd only play a theme tournament with. I don't see any armies coming out of it with a viable chance to place on the podium.

Madcam.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:41 am

madcam2us wrote:
I'd have to say that this is the first book that I'd only play a theme tournament with. I don't see any armies coming out of it with a viable chance to place on the podium.

Well i've only just gotten the book tonight, but i wouldn't sell offensive spear short. And some of those HW units, but i certainly think there are fun lists in there.

Themes are still better anyway.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:46 am

DaiSho wrote: My question has to do with running the Freemen in one rank. If I used my Freemen to 'hold a flank' against skirmishers it is far better economically to use a single rank. If light horse charge we get the same number of dice, but I get an armour bonus so I'll be at an advantage.

So, if I had (for example) 6 Freemen with 3 supporting archers behind with the spearmen in one rank, and keeping a general attached the whole time, how do you think I'd go? Eventually they will probably wind me down, but how long do you think they would last?

If they get one dice per file they are going to get 6 dice. Chances are they are going to get 3 hits, which is a test - but only just. I'd get a - for being within 6" of the base edge (presumably) and a ++ for general attached. A 1:6 chance of losing a base.

Well madcam gave some thoughts, you also may be mixing your poa and attached general here.

SHort answer is yes you can hold up for a short while and either have tied up more enemy BGs or not

it is a CT. You -1 for within 6 mu edge. You could get -1 for HPB and the single +1 for a general.

So you need to roll 8 and with average troops you will fail likely the 2nd try. Then you will need a 9 as you will have a -1 for being disr. Then you are fraged and he can charge you and...

babyshark · Post by **babyshark** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:25 pm

madcam2us wrote:What are you going to do when your recving enough bow fire to take the extra -1 for being within 6 inches? If you're not shutting down the flank by being close to it, whats the point? Being spread out means I can put a ton of bow fire on you, at least 6 dice of lh since you are at least 6 elements wide....

No thank you.

Struggling to put together a quality Viking list. As nice as the Hurscals are they are just too expensive at 12 pts per base, 24 per file.

AngloDanish look ok but will struggle vs most mounted armies...

I'd have to say that this is the first book that I'd only play a theme tournament with. I don't see any armies coming out of it with a viable chance to place on the podium.

Madcam.

Got to disagree with you, Scot. I think there are some pretty strong lists in there. Armored offensive spear are not to be sneered at, and the widely available ability to dismount adds very useful flexibility.

Of course, I own no representative figures and so cannot put this theory to the test.

Marc

ethan · Post by **ethan** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:28 pm

hazelbark wrote:
madcam2us wrote:
I'd have to say that this is the first book that I'd only play a theme tournament with. I don't see any armies coming out of it with a viable chance to place on the podium.
Well i've only just gotten the book tonight, but i wouldn't sell offensive spear short. And some of those HW units, but i certainly think there are fun lists in there.

Themes are still better anyway.

I wonder about say Early Scots (perhaps with Viking allies).

Take the Scots cavalry as LH giving you a reasonable number of LH to chase around enemy skirmishers.

The Scottish Thegns are pretty nasty as either Offensive Spear or Impact foot, you get loads of cheap, fast moving MF Offensive Spear, again useful for chasing around lights, not helpless against many things and dirt cheap. The Vikings then provide a core battline of HF Offensive Spear to hold the open ground with.

daleivan · Post by **daleivan** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 4:51 pm

Merovingians were a surprise for me-- being able to have armored lancers and offensive spear in numbers has possibilities. I like the Viking list too but like Marc don't have any figures (yet) to try them out

Cheers,

Dale

MARVIN_THE_ARVN · Post by **MARVIN_THE_ARVN** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:12 pm

Themes are still better anyway.

Sometimes, ive noticed in a few comps that you can expect 30-40%ish of people to use the same army in a one book tourney.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:16 pm

MARVIN_THE_ARVN wrote:
Themes are still better anyway.
Sometimes, ive noticed in a few comps that you can expect 30-40%ish of people to use the same army in a one book tourney.

The same army perhaps but different people have different takes on the same army. There was a fair variation between the Nikephorian lists at Usk for example and all three Palmyran armies I fought in Derby were significantly different

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:11 pm

I tried Anglo-Danes against some Normans last weekend, and opted for the lightened Huscarls at an affordable 8 pts a base.

I found the Normans managed to break only one spear bg with their mounted, about 10 other attempts saw the Normans bounce off, or rout. The one mistake I made saw some Milites go through a Fyrd unit because I forgot they were armoured not protected, and gave my opponent the + poa. Grrrrrr

As for light horse armies, as long as you keep the Fyrd together I would think they would struggle to get enough shooting on you if you took the armoured version. Needing 3 5s to score enough to make the Fyrd test is not going to be easy.

Besdies, if mounted start to outflank you there is always the Orb formation to keep them from riding you down. Now our club has the definitive answer on how they fight, I think we might see them used more.

MARVIN_THE_ARVN · Post by **MARVIN_THE_ARVN** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:55 pm

The same army perhaps but different people have different takes on the same army. There was a fair variation between the Nikephorian lists at Usk for example and all three Palmyran armies I fought in Derby were significantly different

Most of the ones ive seen have been pretty similar in my lowly opinion

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:15 pm

I have never used the same army twice in competitions and I haven't dne too bad.

MARVIN_THE_ARVN · Post by **MARVIN_THE_ARVN** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:30 pm

Ive played the same army (different players) more than once in a few tourneys

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:47 pm

But thats a problem with army lists, people will go for what they think is best, and popular armies, there are a lot of greek and roman types around

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:14 am

I find the same players tend to do well in the tourneys, not the same armies.

The problems I have with the armies on Tim's & Nik's websites are they are designed by better players, with different playing styles and against a differing range of opponents styles than you would commonly see in the USA.

Still the best advice is pick an army you love even when it loses.

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

Scrumpy wrote: Still the best advice is pick an army you love even when it loses.

That's my theory on the Vikings. I love the Vikings, and I have a very nicely painted army. I can say this because I didn't paint it. Having said that I think I'll love it even when it loses, I'll love it even more when it wins. I only hate it when you get incredibly out 'lucked' on the dice rolling. When you go in against Romans who have the advantage anyway but even on top of that they roll incredibly well... now that sucks.

Ian

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:31 am

I wonder about say Early Scots (perhaps with Viking allies).

Take the Scots cavalry as LH giving you a reasonable number of LH to chase around enemy skirmishers.

The Scottish Thegns are pretty nasty as either Offensive Spear or Impact foot, you get loads of cheap, fast moving MF Offensive Spear, again useful for chasing around lights, not helpless against many things and dirt cheap. The Vikings then provide a core battline of HF Offensive Spear to hold the open ground with.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this army, although I think you want only half the horse as light horse. Vicking Allies yes. The only issue I have is to take the Thegns as Spear or Impact Foot. I have figures for this one too!.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:20 am

MARVIN_THE_ARVN wrote:
The same army perhaps but different people have different takes on the same army. There was a fair variation between the Nikephorian lists at Usk for example and all three Palmyran armies I fought in Derby were significantly different
Most of the ones ive seen have been pretty similar in my lowly opinion

All 3 of the Palmyrans Hammy met at Derby looked the same to him - they were all riding over the top of him

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:52 am

nikgaukroger wrote:
MARVIN_THE_ARVN wrote:
The same army perhaps but different people have different takes on the same army. There was a fair variation between the Nikephorian lists at Usk for example and all three Palmyran armies I fought in Derby were significantly different
Most of the ones ive seen have been pretty similar in my lowly opinion

All 3 of the Palmyrans Hammy met at Derby looked the same to him - they were all riding over the top of him

Well one was all cataphracts and light troops, one had lots of legionaries and the other had a good chunk of auxiliaries. Yes they all had cataphracts but the armies were IMO significantly different. Granted it made little difference to the results but that is a different story

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:22 pm

I guess it would depend on the split (date) whether I would take one of these armies or not...

A few issues with the book though, the Starter army for the the Carolingian franks is illegal by using eastern cav with Bretons... Carolingian horse archers are costed out incorrectly (17 pts for drilled _AVG_ armor lance/swd)...

I'd say Charlemagne/Andalusian are the only lists that I would take to an open competition. E. Scot is a dog. You take too many lh (jav/lt. spr - almost as bad as lance LH) you risk 1/3 of your army to incredibly weak BGs to any shooty mounted/foot. The armored foot is useless at 12 points per base. Note I say in relation to their points. Then the spear are MF/protected. Don't care if you take Vikings. they suffer the same issues. Their best troops are too expensive to justify their points. Any shooty army will avoid the heavies and pick on the rest...

Yes both side can hide is the match-ups are bad, but you won't win too many tournaments that way. I just don't see the combinations that work in order to win an open tournament.

Not to say it wouldn't be fun to play any of these armies in a Theme.

Madcam

Single rank of Spearmen

Single rank of Spearmen

Re: Single rank of Spearmen