Biblical chariot question

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:56 pm

I have been looking at some of the chariots in the early armies in the immortal fire book. It looks as though all light or heavy chariots are either bow armed or light spear armed. Never both and not anything else. Is this a fair comment? Is this how NKE / Hittite chariots would be represented?

I have just posted a few pics of some 1/72nd NKE plastic chariots I have painted. The caesar plastics range seems to cater to NKE much more than Hittite or early Assyrian.

I am assuming that all NKE chariots will be Light Chariots with Bow, is this reasonable?

It looks from the rules as though light chariots with bow are very similar to medium cavalry with bow, they are basically shooters who can fight if pushed??

Heavy chariots are much more similar to knights and are seen as heavy hitters??

You see my dilemma is I like the Caesar NKE plastics, but I really want a "knight" like heavy chariot army which I suspect would be better represented by late assyrians or MAYBE Hittites

Any comments

Phaze_of_the_Moon · Post by **Phaze_of_the_Moon** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:53 pm

I think "knight"-like heavy chariots are a myth. Using a lance from a chariot is almost physically impossible, and running into things is insane.

Best guesses as to the use of the added spearman are: to deliver shock infantry to key points, to hold positions taken by the chariots, or to defend disabled chariots until others can extract them.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:56 pm

What I meant was if you look at the rules, they seem to very much class light chariots as cavalry and heavy chariots as knights.

I realise the heavy chariot did not have lance.

I tend to agree heavy chariots MAY not have been as heavy as we are lead to bellieve but I believe the rules do treat them as fairly heavy close combat weapons. Particularly when you remember almost all inf they will be fighting are medium infantry

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:05 pm

Phaze_of_the_Moon wrote:I think "knight"-like heavy chariots are a myth. Using a lance from a chariot is almost physically impossible, and running into things is insane.

Best guesses as to the use of the added spearman are: to deliver shock infantry to key points, to hold positions taken by the chariots, or to defend disabled chariots until others can extract them.

Well the problem is that all we have to go on is guesses. They don't behave exactly like knights in FoG - there are several differences, not least the fact that the Bow ones can shoot.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:54 pm

Richard,

Can you confirm that most chariots will have Bow OR light spear.

Can you also confirm that NKE will be exclusively light chariots and Assyrians and hittites all heavies or a mixture of heavies and lights?

I am trying to decide whether I should continue with 1/72nd plastics NKE, or more to hittite or Assyrian.

Would you agree that bow armed light chariots such as the NKE are primarilly skirmishing shooters?

Ta

Andy

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:58 am

miffedofreading wrote:Can you confirm that most chariots will have Bow OR light spear.

Yes

Can you also confirm that NKE will be exclusively light chariots and Assyrians and hittites all heavies or a mixture of heavies and lights?

Yes, except that Hittites were more likely all Lights and bow-armed (although we retain the heavies as an option, and the option to be light spear armed) and Middle Assyrians can be all lights.

Would you agree that bow armed light chariots such as the NKE are primarilly skirmishing shooters?

Yes.

miffedofreading · Post by **miffedofreading** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:42 am

stefoid · Post by **stefoid** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:10 am

Im interested in the rationale for the chariot rules and jsut the chariots in general.

I can see 'heavy' chariots charging disrupted foot (after softening them up with shooting) why not? Its not the size of the chariot that is the issue, but the horses and their level of protection, and the density of the charging formation. The lances wont be much use at impact, but they will be great in the resulting melee for skewering enemies that have slipped between the chariots (from a raised protective platform). and the bow armed passenger can continue to shoot whist charging home, almost to the point of impact I would think.

As for chariots charging lancers, well obviously it never happened, but if it did, the lancers would find it jsut as dificult to spear the chariots passengers as vice versa? Unless they are happy to skewer the chariot horses which I suppose would work quite well, but wow, wouldnt the whole thing be a gigantic mess....

Lastly, I wonder why chariots are immune to armor comparisons. chariot horses and passengers wore more or less armor depending on who they were - bronze age passengers and horses were very well protected werent they?

stefoid · Post by **stefoid** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:57 am

bump ??

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:47 am

stefoid wrote:Lastly, I wonder why chariots are immune to armor comparisons. chariot horses and passengers wore more or less armor depending on who they were - bronze age passengers and horses were very well protected werent they?

The majority of Near Eastern chariot crew and horses seem to have been armoured. However, comparisons of the overall effect of armour on close combat between chariots and troops on horseback or on foot is fairly meaningless, so we chose not to get side-tracked by such minutiae. Suffice it to say that we feel the overall interaction is correct.

The shooting rules assume that most chariots are armoured. Those that weren't get a lucky break.

davem · Post by **davem** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 8:56 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
stefoid wrote:Lastly, I wonder why chariots are immune to armor comparisons. chariot horses and passengers wore more or less armor depending on who they were - bronze age passengers and horses were very well protected werent they?
The majority of Near Eastern chariot crew and horses seem to have been armoured. However, comparisons of the overall effect of armour on close combat between chariots and troops on horseback or on foot is fairly meaningless, so we chose not to get side-tracked by such minutiae. Suffice it to say that we feel the overall interaction is correct.

The shooting rules assume that most chariots are armoured. Those that weren't get a lucky break.

They do? I just looked and I can't see any advantage over being protected?

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:13 am

davem wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:The shooting rules assume that most chariots are armoured. Those that weren't get a lucky break.
They do? I just looked and I can't see any advantage over being protected?

Bows etc are on + against Protected cavalry who are deployed in more than one rank. Not so vs chariots.

(And yes I know chariots only shoot in one rank, but there will be occasions when they will be in more than one rank - e.g. if they turn 90 degrees).

davem · Post by **davem** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:24 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
davem wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:The shooting rules assume that most chariots are armoured. Those that weren't get a lucky break.
They do? I just looked and I can't see any advantage over being protected?
Bows etc are on + against Protected cavalry who are deployed in more than one rank. Not so vs chariots.

(And yes I know chariots only shoot in one rank, but there will be occasions when they will be in more than one rank - e.g. if they turn 90 degrees).

OK, so a very marginal advantage and that only if manouvering in the face of the enemy. Which has never been a good idea!

My experience of LCh so far is that in impact and melee they are usually a POA down on most opponents and only the extra dice (if they survive impact to melee) gives them an advantage over other mtd apart from Kn.
Having said that they are fun to use and I'm currently enjoying running my NKE.

The less said about the moving dart-boards that comprise their infantry the better....

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:30 am

davem wrote:OK, so a very marginal advantage and that only if manouvering in the face of the enemy.

The same advantage as Armoured cavalry, which was the point you were contesting.

davem · Post by **davem** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:39 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
davem wrote:OK, so a very marginal advantage and that only if manouvering in the face of the enemy.
The same advantage as Armoured cavalry, which was the point you were contesting.

Then I must have been doing it wrong as all my opponents have been hitting me on 4. From your comment it should be 5?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:42 am

No it is on a 4+, I think you're misunderstanding Richard's point.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:42 am

davem wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote:
davem wrote:OK, so a very marginal advantage and that only if manouvering in the face of the enemy.
The same advantage as Armoured cavalry, which was the point you were contesting.
Then I must have been doing it wrong as all my opponents have been hitting me on 4. From your comment it should be 5?

No. Check out the shooting rules for Protected and Armoured cavalry. Chariots are treated the same as Armoured cavalry against bows, javelins, slings. Protected cavalry get hit on 3s if not in 1 rank. Chariots and Armoured cavalry get hit on 4s whatever their formation.

davem · Post by **davem** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:50 am

rbodleyscott wrote:
davem wrote:
rbodleyscott wrote: The same advantage as Armoured cavalry, which was the point you were contesting.
Then I must have been doing it wrong as all my opponents have been hitting me on 4. From your comment it should be 5?
No. Check out the shooting rules for Protected and Armoured cavalry. Chariots are treated the same as Armoured cavalry against bows, javelins, slings. Protected cavalry get hit on 3s if not in 1 rank. Chariots and Armoured cavalry get hit on 4s whatever their formation.

OK, I probably need another cup of coffee....

stefoid · Post by **stefoid** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:47 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
stefoid wrote:Lastly, I wonder why chariots are immune to armor comparisons. chariot horses and passengers wore more or less armor depending on who they were - bronze age passengers and horses were very well protected werent they?
The majority of Near Eastern chariot crew and horses seem to have been armoured. However, comparisons of the overall effect of armour on close combat between chariots and troops on horseback or on foot is fairly meaningless, so we chose not to get side-tracked by such minutiae. Suffice it to say that we feel the overall interaction is correct.

The shooting rules assume that most chariots are armoured. Those that weren't get a lucky break.

Understood about the overall effect. I was just curious because you already had rules in place to deal with armor 'minutiae' (is that really a word? : ) but you chose to add another rule for chariots. but overall effect is overall effect.