Changing ranks

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:35 am

In the game last night my opponant had a half spear, half bow unit. It started with 4 spears at the front and 4 bows in the second rank. The chap then contracted them into a column 2 bases wide and wanted to have the 4 spear elements as the 1st and 2nd ranks. Is this OK?
Also when this type of unit comes into contact are they stuck with a rank of spear and a rank of bows or can they get into two ranks of spears?

shall · Post by **shall** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:07 am

The contraction is fine, and the normal way to get the spears to the fore 2 ranks deep.

Once in combat they have to strictly follow the rules for moving bases around in combat. You can't just move the formation around anytime - it has to be as part of a legal move as above. So they are likely to have Sp with BW behind throughout. The Bw fight as the front rank base; but if a Sp is lost then this file needs to fight separately often at a POA disdvantage or more.

So it takes some forethought to stay safe - seems your opponent had some. But then you are 4 deep and losing frontage so still not ideal, and not much shooting power left. Such troops really need to be handled carefully to fight mounted opponents where the protected shooting is effective due to the Sp cancelling out certain mounted POAs suc as Lancer at impact and possible Sw in melee if they keep them at bay.

Hope that helps

Si

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:41 am

Yes, but if only the front rank is SP and the second rank is BW, you do not gain a + factor for SP in two ranks . So sometimes being in 4 ranks with the 2 first ranks being SP might be the solution ( not always I agree ) .

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:20 am

Simon said 'The Bw fight as the front rank base;' does he mean that a front rank of spear and a second ranks of bows count as two ranks of spear? If so where does it say this is how you do it in the rules?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:26 am

They fight at the factors of the front rank. The front rank would normally get a POA if 2 ranks of spear. In this case they are not so do not. So the rear rank fight at the factor of the front, no POA for 2 ranks of spear. In other examples: If the front rank got a POA for better armour the second would get that, if the front rank had sword the second would count it. Basically factors are worked out for the front rank and then that is wahat the second rank uses as well, even if LF. But LF then lose 1 dice per 2.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:52 pm

philqw78 wrote:They fight at the factors of the front rank. The front rank would normally get a POA if 2 ranks of spear. In this case they are not so do not. So the rear rank fight at the factor of the front, no POA for 2 ranks of spear. In other examples: If the front rank got a POA for better armour the second would get that, if the front rank had sword the second would count it. Basically factors are worked out for the front rank and then that is wahat the second rank uses as well, even if LF. But LF then lose 1 dice per 2.

Really? I supposed each kind of troops fight "as if it is in front rank" so calculating its own POA. In example of Spear and Bow, if Spear are on 2 ranks they fight with POA for 2 ranks of spear. When a base is lost, since you loose a base of front rank, where you take away the casualty, rear ranks of spear advance to front rank, and now that base fight without POA for 2 ranks of spear. The new second rank, in this case bowmen, add a dice, but with POA calculated as they are in front rank. Enemy count always only spear as opponent, since front rank is still spear (and for example swordsmen still didn't count POA+ because they are facing again spear). This is how I had understood the rules.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:18 pm

I supposed each kind of troops fight "as if it is in front rank"

No. POA is calculated by file dependant upon what the front rank of the file is or has. So Amrd HF Spear in front rank with a LF Bow in rear rank would get 2 dice. It would get no POA for spear as not 2 ranks of spear. It may get POA for heavier armour though. The LF behind would fight at the same POA as the front. Imagine in melee phase:

__

is supporting LF

is Armoured Spear

is enemy Armoured Spear

All are steady

As we view it.

In the left file. Friendly POA's are none because there is no second rank of spear. Enemy is + as two ranks of spear

In the right hand file. Friendly POA's are + for 2 ranks of spear. Enemy POA's are none again because only one rank of spear

So the left friends fight at - with 2 dice, the enemy at + with 2 dice
The right friends fight at + with 2 dice, enemy at - with one dice

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:25 pm

marioslaz wrote:
philqw78 wrote:They fight at the factors of the front rank. The front rank would normally get a POA if 2 ranks of spear. In this case they are not so do not. So the rear rank fight at the factor of the front, no POA for 2 ranks of spear. In other examples: If the front rank got a POA for better armour the second would get that, if the front rank had sword the second would count it. Basically factors are worked out for the front rank and then that is wahat the second rank uses as well, even if LF. But LF then lose 1 dice per 2.
Really? I supposed each kind of troops fight "as if it is in front rank" so calculating its own POA. In example of Spear and Bow, if Spear are on 2 ranks they fight with POA for 2 ranks of spear. When a base is lost, since you loose a base of front rank, where you take away the casualty, rear ranks of spear advance to front rank, and now that base fight without POA for 2 ranks of spear. The new second rank, in this case bowmen, add a dice, but with POA calculated as they are in front rank. Enemy count always only spear as opponent, since front rank is still spear (and for example swordsmen still didn't count POA+ because they are facing again spear). This is how I had understood the rules.

What the rules actally say is:

"Rear rank bases ... use the same net POAs as the front rank."

not

"as if it is in front rank"

Even some native English speakers get confused by this.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:14 pm

lawrenceg wrote:What the rules actally say is:

"Rear rank bases ... use the same net POAs as the front rank."

not

"as if it is in front rank"

Even some native English speakers get confused by this.

I don't know if your phrase was sarcastic

, my English doesn't permit me, but I found my error. I get confused with overlap. Overlap base fights as it was in front contact, not rear bases. I remembered something, but a wrong case.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:43 pm

marioslaz wrote:
lawrenceg wrote:What the rules actally say is:

"Rear rank bases ... use the same net POAs as the front rank."

not

"as if it is in front rank"

Even some native English speakers get confused by this.
I don't know if your phrase was sarcastic , my English doesn't permit me, but I found my error. I get confused with overlap. Overlap base fights as it was in front contact, not rear bases. I remembered something, but a wrong case.

No, I wasn't being sarcastic. The point is: you are not the only person to get confused about this rule.

marioslaz · Post by **marioslaz** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:22 am

lawrenceg wrote:No, I wasn't being sarcastic. The point is: you are not the only person to get confused about this rule.

OK, but I wish to point out I have no problem with sarcasm

. The only problem could be I cannot understand it or even recognize.

And this is not only due to the fact English is not my native language, because sometime I cannot even recognize sarcasm in Italian language