Encirclement strategies for Kiev scenario

[thgmusic]

I'm playing through Blitzkrieg at level 3 difficulty. I'm doing ok, especially thanks to some of the great advice from this forum.

So, now I'm at the Kiev scenario, which seems like an invitation, if not command, to go for a massive encirclement through pursuing those secondary objectives. I'm pretty cautious when it comes to provoking the AI, though. I do want to go for it, so I've stationed balanced forces at the northern and southern staging points with the idea of moving towards those secondaries, meeting in the middle so to speak, and then attacking Kiev from the rear. (By balanced, I mean that they each have roughly the same amount of infantry, tanks and artillery plus air support.)

Without giving away too much, what's the advice from the grognards here? I'm looking for general tactical and strategic recommendations, not looking for spoilers of what's coming up. (I can watch Paradogs Gamer for those!)
I especially worry about what kind of rear guard I might need to leave to make sure my advancing units don't get cut off from supply.

As always, thanks for any help you are willing to give!

[PoorOldSpike]

I played the Kiev scen last year, and vaguely remember I got a fairly easy win because it's only 1941 and the Russkis were like sitting ducks lacking any initiative, my Jerries simply rolled across the hinterland knocking off one group after another without much trouble I don't think Ivan staged any dangerous counterattacks or anything.
Here's a map I prepared for my own use, use it to plan your own strategy if you like.
RED=Primary
BLUE=Secondaries
Purple=Front line at start
Yellow= Airfields
Green= German deployment zones






Here's the strategy I used when I played it last year, simply advancing my Germans along the white arrows-

[PoorOldSpike]

GUDERIAN TRIES TO TALK HITLER INTO GOING FOR MOSCOW INSTEAD OF KIEV:

[thgmusic]

Thanks for responding! I like your plan, though I tend to be a bit timid about moving for the encirclement AND the attack on Kiev simultaneously. (I'm assuming that's what you did)
I remember you said that you just play scenarios and not campaigns, I believe? In my first run up to Kiev, I had not the forces to adequately supplement the Kiev contingent while (or whilst ) having enough remaining "beef" for two strong pincers in the north and south.
Perhaps in the standalone scenario you get more assets?
I just re-started the Blitzkrieg campaign with an eye towards better RP management which I hope will put me in a better place for stronger equipment, especially artillery, as I progress. Now, the lack of CPs is another thing...

[PoorOldSpike]

Thanks for responding! I like your plan, though I tend to be a bit timid about moving for the encirclement AND the attack on Kiev simultaneously.....I remember you said that you just play scenarios and not campaigns, I believe?

Yes I'm a vanilla standalone scen freak because they can be played the same way as we make love, (quickly and decisively without having to keep consulting the manual too much), whereas I find Campaigns too long for my taste, I'm 70 years old and could be dead long before I finish them..
Two things to remember about the Kiev scen-
1- You're only playing against the AI, so let them fear YOU rather than the other way around. I've been playing comp wargames for almost 40 years and haven't yet seen an AI in any game that poses a real challenge.
2- Most Russki tanks in Kiev are tin cans so your panzers will go through them like butter.
Here's what's available, it's a matter of personal preference of course, but I'd buy mostly PzIV F1's (short 75mm gun) because their shells are better than the other smaller calibres for toasting the hordes of Russki infantry, AND the gun is great against tin cans too.
You might also like to buy a few Stugs because their gun can be switched to the artillery role when necessary to give you extra tactical flexibility.
PS- Note at bottom right you get 2650 purchase points, 75 ground cmd points and 20 Air cmd points, enough to rule the world..

"That's what I want! That's what I want to have!"- Hitler quote at a panzer demonstration, Kummersdorf 1933

[thgmusic]

Wow, that's a lot of RPs & CPs!
The image didn't seem to come through, by the way...

[Halvralf]

I'm playing through Blitzkrieg at level 3 difficulty. I'm doing ok, especially thanks to some of the great advice from this forum.

So, now I'm at the Kiev scenario, which seems like an invitation, if not command, to go for a massive encirclement through pursuing those secondary objectives. I'm pretty cautious when it comes to provoking the AI, though. I do want to go for it, so I've stationed balanced forces at the northern and southern staging points with the idea of moving towards those secondaries, meeting in the middle so to speak, and then attacking Kiev from the rear. (By balanced, I mean that they each have roughly the same amount of infantry, tanks and artillery plus air support.)

Without giving away too much, what's the advice from the grognards here? I'm looking for general tactical and strategic recommendations, not looking for spoilers of what's coming up. (I can watch Paradogs Gamer for those!)
I especially worry about what kind of rear guard I might need to leave to make sure my advancing units don't get cut off from supply.

As always, thanks for any help you are willing to give!

My advice is to wait with any direct attacks at Kiev as it's much more rewarding to cut Kiev off. Just go full push towrads the three oblectives and when you have linked up it's quite easy as the Russiens get low on supply. Watch out for counterattacks from NE at Konotop and east of Mirgorod. The RP's a you see at Spikes screenshots are from the single scenario where you have no core force at start but have to buy everything.
Cheers
Halvralf

[PoorOldSpike]

Aargh I just played it and LOST despite capturing Kiev and the 3 secondary towns!!
The game awarded me a 'fail' because I didn't kill 100 Russkis; my excuse is that I was too obsessed with bypassing most of them in order to reach the objectives, but it'll cut no ice with my nanny who's furious with me for not paying attention to the required victory conditions, so it'll be the naughty step for me tonight (sniffle)..




Here are my two panzer pincer thrusts (circled) meeting up in the middle of the map on turn 19 and about to take Romny, each thrust contained-
3x PzIVF1
1x Stug III
4x infantry units (some had to be dropped off en route to guard my supply lines)
Plus I had 4 x Fighters and 2x Stukas buzzing around-
Incidentally I bought nothing (repeat nothing) to assault Kiev with, I simply waited til my two pincer thrusts had cut off the cities supply,(like Halvralf suggested) then used the 4x Infantry that began the game on the west edge to advance steadily into the city with Stuka support.
(I detached some panzers to send them racing west towards Kiev but they were delayed by Russki infantry sitting dug-in on the roads, and only about 3 panzers reached Kiev very late in the game)

[GabeKnight]

My advice is to wait with any direct attacks at Kiev as it's much more rewarding to cut Kiev off. Just go full push towrads the three oblectives and when you have linked up it's quite easy as the Russiens get low on supply. Watch out for counterattacks from NE at Konotop and east of Mirgorod.

Agree. Can't argue that there may be other ways, but this one works for me every time.

[terminator]

Just a remark in passing : the Primary Objective "Destroy or rout 100 grounds units" shoud not be set Failed for PoorOldSpike ?

[PoorOldSpike]

Just a remark in passing : the Primary Objective "Destroy or rout 100 grounds units" shoud not be set Failed for PoorOldSpike ?

I only killed 70 instead of the required 100, so I suppose that's why the game failed me.
BTW, what the heck is "routed" supposed to mean?
In fact I wish scenario designers everywhere would be more specific, as there are many other scens whose victory condits are confusing and open to different interpretations.

[terminator]

Just a remark in passing : the Primary Objective "Destroy or rout 100 grounds units" shoud not be set Failed for PoorOldSpike ?

I only killed 70 instead of the required 100, so I suppose that's why the game failed me.

Yes, that is the reason of the defeat

Perhaps presented as this, it would have been clearer ?

oob-kiev-end_zpspgcpccao.jpg~original(2).jpg (227.79 KiB) Viewed 3524 times

[GabeKnight]

BTW, what the heck is "routed" supposed to mean?

If the enemy unit's damaged to a degree, they'll retreat and exit the map on their own (in the east)

[PoorOldSpike]

If the enemy unit's damaged to a degree, they'll retreat and exit the map on their own (in the east)

Thanks but I never noticed anybody fleeing like that; in fact this beat-up joker at bottom centre on turn 14 actually preferred digging in..

[GabeKnight]

If the enemy unit's damaged to a degree, they'll retreat and exit the map on their own (in the east)

Thanks but I never noticed anybody fleeing like that; in fact this beat-up joker at bottom centre on turn 14 actually preferred digging in..

Still, there's the trigger in there for almost all AI teams with HP < 4 ordering them to exit the map (if they can).

[PoorOldSpike]

Still, there's the trigger in there for almost all AI teams with HP < 4 ordering them to exit the map (if they can).

Thanks, that gives me another excuse for my defeat, I must have wasted too much time getting sidetracked trying to hunt down runners instead of just letting them run off the map..