Unit Scale and Basing

[GuyFawcett]

The following information was given out on the Napoleonic Forum could someone provide the same information for FoG Renaissance?


FoG Napoleonic Basing

"There's an lot of speculation about these new rules - and not without reason.

There are 2 main questions that need to be answered up front:

1) Scale of game.
........I can say that the smallest 'unit' on the table will be of regiment or demi-brigade 'size'. .........Larger formations will be the Division and the Corps.

2) Basing.
Many people want to know - Will I be able to use my existing figures without rebasing?
One of our important criteria was to allow players to try the rules using their existing figures without the need to rebase.
What we've tried to do is to allow players to use any basing scheme they wish, within the confines of the unit 'shape'
We don't use 'bases' to calculate firing or combat - so the number of bases used to represent a unit is irrelevent.
I have to say, it would have been much easier to design the rules to use a single basing system, but I think the end result is a pretty good compromise. I myself have armies with infantry 6 to a base (3x2) and 8 to a base (4x2). I also have cavalry 2, 3 & 4 to a base. Each of these armies can be used on the same table in the same battle because individual bases are not important."

[nikgaukroger]

I understand that FoG R is at a much earlier stage of development than FoG N so it will possibly be a while before this sort of information is available.

I may, of course, be wrong and pleasantly surprised

[frederic]

Personnaly I think the DBR basing will be kept
1) Lot of players have DBR armies
2) Renaissance is not so different than late medieval for many armies (Swiss, Ordonnance, Ottoman...), it would be really bad that a FOG player having such an army could not play early Renaissance with it .

[o54881]

I think for 15mm and 25mm we should use the DBR stand format. Most of the players of the period have figures set up for that.

[daleivan]

Personnaly I think the DBR basing will be kept
1) Lot of players have DBR armies
2) Renaissance is not so different than late medieval for many armies (Swiss, Ordonnance, Ottoman...), it would be really bad that a FOG player having such an army could not play early Renaissance with it .

That's my guess, too, for the reasons you cited.

Cheers,

Dale

[o54881]

Okay so use DBR basing. But what about battalion guns, surely they need to be on the same base size as the musketeers?

[frederic]

Okay so use DBR basing. But what about battalion guns, surely they need to be on the same base size as the musketeers?

When did the battalion guns start to appear on the battlefields ?
I thought it was only on XVIII century which is out of the Renaissance period.

[o54881]

When did the battalion guns start to appear on the battlefields ?
I thought it was only on XVIII century which is out of the Renaissance period.

No Swedes started using battion guns from mid 1600s.

[MadJoeB]

When did the battalion guns start to appear on the battlefields ?
I thought it was only on XVIII century which is out of the Renaissance period.

No Swedes started using battion guns from mid 1600s.

I would add my 2 pennies worth and ask that DBR bases are used. How big were the Batt guns that were used? Would they fit on a 40 X 20 base, or would this look daft?

[SirGarnet]

Speculating as always armed with some logic but no foreknowledge . . . .

Crossover compatibility and commercial considerations suggest troops based for Medieval FOG will work for FoGRen, so DBR bases should work.

But FoG is a higher scale than DBR so I think separate stands of battalion guns are below the scale as well as liable to get in the way as they did in DBR. I would bet my 2 free rerolls that they will be subsumed into another capability or provide a POA in some cases - musketeer bases could add gun models.

Or a battalion gun base could be something like FF and commanders in that it can be attached in front of or behind a foot file to depict its location in or out of the front rank - something like a cross between FF and commanders, they would not actually occupy the base space but would be moved out of the way, might count only if the BG is stationary, might be lost in some cases etc. This sounds like interesting flavor and tactical detail, but adds complexity.

The important point from a clean design point of view being that the space actually occupied by the BG should be that occupied by the pike and shot bases and bn gun models don't get in the way.

Mike

[charlesmasefield]

Speculating as always armed with some logic but no foreknowledge . . . .

Crossover compatibility and commercial considerations suggest troops based for Medieval FOG will work for FoGRen, so DBR bases should work.

But FoG is a higher scale than DBR so I think separate stands of battalion guns are below the scale as well as liable to get in the way as they did in DBR. I would bet my 2 free rerolls that they will be subsumed into another capability or provide a POA in some cases - musketeer bases could add gun models.

Or a battalion gun base could be something like FF and commanders in that it can be attached in front of or behind a foot file to depict its location in or out of the front rank - something like a cross between FF and commanders, they would not actually occupy the base space but would be moved out of the way, might count only if the BG is stationary, might be lost in some cases etc. This sounds like interesting flavor and tactical detail, but adds complexity.

The important point from a clean design point of view being that the space actually occupied by the BG should be that occupied by the pike and shot bases and bn gun models don't get in the way.

Mike

We are certainly looking at dealing with battalion guns in a more abstract way. They were an important part of the Swedish army that fought at 1st Brietenfeld and Lutzen and the Imperialists started using them about this time.

[Tiger]

Surely Bttn Gun depiction will depend on scale as noted earlier. I would have thought best represented as a factor in units that have them, rather than specific bases.

[o54881]

We are players of games with figures.
Our games must look right and play well to stand any chance of being taken up by wargaming as a whole.

[SirGarnet]

Mix in a bn gun and crewman on some musketeer basese for the right visual effect?

[larrydunn]

When did the battalion guns start to appear on the battlefields ?
I thought it was only on XVIII century which is out of the Renaissance period.

No Swedes started using battion guns from mid 1600s.

Yes, he had leather guns from the wars with the Poles and early wars in Germany. These were unreliable but bolstered close defense of his mutually supporting battle formations and, as has been often remarked, greatly bolstered morale of the infantry, who felt they had something heavy to throw against the enemy. From Lutzen on the Swedes had 4-pounder iron guns, much better weapons than the leather guns but still useful primarily as large, semi-mobile "shotguns" and to give the infantry the idea they were actually taking the battle to the enemy, even though it was through means of tossing the occasional 3 or 4 pound ball at them.

They were at their most useful in relatively small actions, such as the battles of the American Revolution, particularly the ultra-light "crickets" of the British army, which had an effect on morale entirely out of proportion to their firepower.

[OldenTired]

picking this up further (and hoping the administrators just move this to area51 when its *finally* up)

the scale of the league of augsburg lists are... difficult. are we supposed to assume that one BG is a regiment/battalion of infantry? and that cavalry is a squadron or two?

for instance the grenadier a cheval is given a number of bases. but the unit itself was only a single company. meanwhile, we're given the option of having up to two BG of maison du roi. this makes me think the scales are out. especially considering that the cavalerie legere gets only three times the number of bases as the maison du roi, but historically were much, much more numerous.

it's the same with the guards. two BG of guards, obviously the french and swiss guards. but we can only have 8 BG of line infantry.

makes me think that if you're scaling up, get rid of things like pike and make all foot protected, and fold the cheval into the maison du roi with the option to have them all the same quality (especially considering that the line and kings' horse can be as good...)

[nikgaukroger]

Please remember that the beta test lists are quick and dirty - there really is no point in dwelling too much on them and the beta testers role is to test the rules. Lists when published may not look anything like the beat ones for a whole raft of reasons - not least changes made in the light of your play testing which is why it is important to us that you do lots

[OldenTired]

Please remember that the beta test lists are quick and dirty - there really is no point in dwelling too much on them and the beta testers role is to test the rules. Lists when published may not look anything like the beat ones for a whole raft of reasons - not least changes made in the light of your play testing which is why it is important to us that you do lots

will do. first actual game up this week

[Samei00]

Hi
BGs in "Horse & Musket" period had more of a morale effect
Interestingly, after Gustavus' death apparently the Swedish generals ditched the BGs in favour of heavier pieces as they were more useful in sieges
and the battlefield performance of the smaller guns did not justify keeping them
pps hope the Mughals get an "ahgun" organ gun, Bearsden minins do a nice 28mm model

[MatteoPasi]

Personnaly I think the DBR basing will be kept
1) Lot of players have DBR armies
2) Renaissance is not so different than late medieval for many armies (Swiss, Ordonnance, Ottoman...), it would be really bad that a FOG player having such an army could not play early Renaissance with it .

I agree BUT DBR allowded to have 3 or 4 shoot per base and 3 or 4 Pistolers per base, does FOGR will alsa let people choose ?

Matteo