limiting the power of LH

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:11 pm

tamerlane wrote:Are you that convinced that LH is overpowered. They still can't kill that much.

Adrian

Its strange a large amount of people that complain about LH armies use Heavy foot armies. Now i think we should have a look to see how over bearing Heavy foot armies are those Romans seem mighty strong to me. But if you raise that fact your told they were like that in real life. As stated why try and restrict a group of LH there doing what they did in real times. Did not the Mongols run rings round Knights ect.

I think Knights are too strong as well my personal view but I'll still fight them thats what you do.To change the way LH are used in FOG you'd have to use special rules by any comp organsiers as rule writer in another thread states no amendments for a number of years.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:15 pm

hammy wrote:
jcmedhurst wrote:
The issue is that historically there were very few occasions where a hellenistic army beat a horse archer army and probably none where the 'points' were anything like even.
Don't know about that - Alexander managed it against the Skythians. Need to take more artillery evidently

John
I was thinking of this one but IIRC it was all of Alexanders army against som Skythians and they didn't like being shot so went away and left him alone.

The way Alexander trapped the Skythinas was to send the companions forward as targets, get them surrounded by LH and then charge with the rest to crush the LH against the companions.

Sounds like what happened to me in my first comp as a novice. My Bosporan LH got themselves trapped between Jerome Bodelle's pikemen and agema/companions and squashed like bugs

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:36 pm

david53 wrote:
tamerlane wrote:Are you that convinced that LH is overpowered. They still can't kill that much.

Adrian
Its strange a large amount of people that complain about LH armies use Heavy foot armies. Now i think we should have a look to see how over bearing Heavy foot armies are those Romans seem mighty strong to me. But if you raise that fact your told they were like that in real life. As stated why try and restrict a group of LH there doing what they did in real times. Did not the Mongols run rings round Knights ect.

I think Knights are too strong as well my personal view but I'll still fight them thats what you do.To change the way LH are used in FOG you'd have to use special rules by any comp organsiers as rule writer in another thread states no amendments for a number of years.

My personal experience is that whatever troop types my opponent has are over-powered, but whatever troop types I happen to be using are under-powered.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:33 pm

My personal experience is that whatever troop types my opponent has are over-powered, but whatever troop types I happen to be using are under-powered.

Good answer that and it happens to me all the time to.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:36 pm

MadBanker wrote:
Well, Antiochus III restored their (at least nominal) obedience after defeating them during his anabasis. Later, his son Antiochus IV was at first succesful against them before dying from illness (or a chariot accident, sources aren't too clear on this).
Much later, in the 120's BC, Antiochus VII was at first very succesful in battle against them (reconquering Babylonia, Mesopotamia and Media) and forcing Phraates II the Parthian ruler to negotiate.

So which are the sources that mention/describe these battles?

OldenTired · Post by **OldenTired** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:03 pm

well, it looks like the idea wasn't tested, so i'll try it out at the club next time i'm there.

will also use the CMT to get back within range idea. if anything it will emphasise the worth Drilled skirmisher BG (and two points for evading off table)

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:42 am

OldenTired wrote:will also use the CMT to get back within range idea. if anything it will emphasise the worth Drilled skirmisher BG

Which would be unfair as they are points costed on the basis of there being no difference from Undrilled.

BillMc · Post by **BillMc** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:43 pm

I think the balance in the rules is good right now, I would not recommend implementing additional command radius restrictions. If the LH is out of a commanders radius they lose ability to rally, double move, etc. So that limits them sufficiently in my opinion. And who cares if they charge into the rear of a Heavy foot unit all by themselves - now you have them pinned and they are dead.

If you are fighting with a heavy foot army, either line up and shove them off the board or box in segments of the harassers when they get to close. (Expanding and moving in to put them in the Restricted Area does wonders). Remember it is not a free interpenetration for LH through other LH/Cv. If they have LH out front of other BGs then push them back into them - if they don't maneuver out of the way then you get chain cohesion reductions as they evade through each other running from your heavy foot line. Is it easy, no; can it be done yes. Is it fun---YES!

Bill

OldenTired · Post by **OldenTired** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:44 pm

rbodleyscott wrote:
OldenTired wrote:will also use the CMT to get back within range idea. if anything it will emphasise the worth Drilled skirmisher BG
Which would be unfair as they are points costed on the basis of there being no difference from Undrilled.

OTOH it would make the more expensive LH armies like Mongol more competitive versus any LH without sword.

and thanks to everyone for the persistent advice about "pushing them off table"... i've played enough games where the opponent slows the game just enough, or is a genuinely slow enough player, that this sterling bit of tactic (which currently delivers a miserly 1AP per unit), cannot or will not be completed in 3 and a half hours.

and, it is the most boring game in the history of wargaming.

i'd rather give up and go play warhammer... THERE! said it... war-ham-mer.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:07 pm

I have pushed LH armies off tables several times.

Do you play LH armies? It may help for yout to try them, once you have been given a right pasting you can work out how to do it to others!

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:47 pm

I think the LH armies are not over-rated at all.

They are relatively easy to face unless they have something like a crowbar to open up an enemy position.

Most players beaten by a LH army do the following Often all the following:

Deploy with both flanks in the air.
Don't push the LH hard and make them flee.
Don't deploy their own troops in supporting ditance of one another.
Don't have plan other than to sit there and let the LH shoot them.
Have no missile troops in ANY part of the battlefield.

Once players stop doing these thigs it gets more difficult for the LH quickly. Gamers being gamers the rate of evolution would make Darwin believe in the divine spark.

OldenTired · Post by **OldenTired** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:13 pm

dave_r wrote:I have pushed LH armies off tables several times.

Do you play LH armies? It may help for yout to try them, once you have been given a right pasting you can work out how to do it to others!

as i say, sometimes three and a half hours pushing hard with foot and mounted, still isn't enough to clear almost every group of a 17BG army off table. and this isn't something limited to me, i've seen top-ranking players have exactly the same trouble.

and in the "if you can't beat them join em ranks", and painting an LAP this very minute. so i'm back off to the painting board right now.