Breaking in the JAP

[corbon]

Not being an expert searcher of forums, I couldn't find any answer to this.

The odd situation
1. mounted unit pursues into steady foot unit during its own turn.
2. unless we got it wrong (entirely possible), this is done as an impact combat in the next impact phase
3. it is now the foot's turn. They hold in the impact phase (disrupting the mounted), move a BG of LF behind the mounted in the movement phase (preventing a break-off), frag the mounted in the melee phase.
4. during the break-off part of the JAP the mounted drop a level (due to being unable to break off) and break.

The question(s)
In the detailed turn sequence breakdown there is no place in JAP for all the consequences of combats etc the way there is in impact/shooting/melee sections. Ie, no initial routs (with associated VMDs for both sides etc), no morale tests for seeing routs.
1. Assumably tests should still be done as 'normal' for those seeing the rout? (Or does it just look like a break-off in a bit more hurry than usual!)
2. Is there an initial rout this phase (immediately?) (with associated pursuit) and then a 'normal' JAP rout later this phase?

[madmike111]

What you described about moving a LF behind your cav has happened exactly to me...twice. Last time a couple of weeks ago.

Not a particularly nice way to loss a cav unit.

[hammy]

What you described about moving a LF behind your cav has happened exactly to me...twice. Last time a couple of weeks ago.

Not a particularly nice way to loss a cav unit.

True, it is the closest thing in FoG to the DBM 'buttocks of death'

If you break an enemy BG in your bound it can lead to a few problems for your pursuing troops. If on the other hand you break an enemy BG in their bound all sorts of opportunities can appear.

[hazelbark]

Not being an expert searcher of forums, I couldn't find any answer to this.

2. Is there an initial rout this phase (immediately?) (with associated pursuit) and then a 'normal' JAP rout later this phase?

This part is easy, although i don't have rules with me.

But if there is no initial rout then there is just the signle rout in the phase. However I suggest you double check as in the section about deteriotating cohesion states it might specifiy an immediate rout.

[nikgaukroger]

The question(s)
In the detailed turn sequence breakdown there is no place in JAP for all the consequences of combats etc the way there is in impact/shooting/melee sections. Ie, no initial routs (with associated VMDs for both sides etc), no morale tests for seeing routs.
1. Assumably tests should still be done as 'normal' for those seeing the rout? (Or does it just look like a break-off in a bit more hurry than usual!)
2. Is there an initial rout this phase (immediately?) (with associated pursuit) and then a 'normal' JAP rout later this phase?

For 1 yes you test - p112 tells you whn to test.

For 2 if you check the bit on Broken in the Battle Group Deterioration - p114 - you'll see that you make a rout in the phase in which you break and then each subsequent JAP.

[corbon]

The question(s)
In the detailed turn sequence breakdown there is no place in JAP for all the consequences of combats etc the way there is in impact/shooting/melee sections. Ie, no initial routs (with associated VMDs for both sides etc), no morale tests for seeing routs.
1. Assumably tests should still be done as 'normal' for those seeing the rout? (Or does it just look like a break-off in a bit more hurry than usual!)
2. Is there an initial rout this phase (immediately?) (with associated pursuit) and then a 'normal' JAP rout later this phase?

For 1 yes you test - p112 tells you whn to test.

For 2 if you check the bit on Broken in the Battle Group Deterioration - p114 - you'll see that you make a rout in the phase in which you break and then each subsequent JAP.

Thanks Nik, especially for the page references.

For the others, being an experienced DBMer (well, relatively for a non-UKer), it was me what dun it to me 'apless 'ponent.

Served him right for having his half strength, fragged, heavy chariots break my elephants!

[hammy]

Served him right for having his half strength, fragged, heavy chariots break my elephants!

What is it about half strength fragged heavy chariots and elephants? The exact same happened to me in a game last year. My elephants hit the chariots, killed a base and dirupted them, killed another base and fragged them then in the next two melees I went disrupted then broke with a double drop!

Its a game of skill

[shall]

Seems sorted.

On the tactical side I find this very different to the buttocks of death in that it is reasonble.

Having a few LF killing a recoiling phalanx makes no sense to me. Having LH/LF get in the way to stop LOSING cavalry who need to get away in good order to recharge and thereby making trouble for them is actually pretty realistic.

Note in FOG you can only suffer such a problem with light troops behind if you need to evade of break off (which is fundamentally different to DBM). This represents troops who need to get away and regroup to be effective.

Such troops would have problems if their escape route was ever interfered with by enemy. So one needs to try to keep such paths clear. This of course gets more difficult in a pursuit -as in reality.

Si

[SirGarnet]

The "when to test" on p112 says both at the end of the phase after various events which don't occur in the JAP and "before the broken troops make their initial rout move" (which is also the only rout move they make in the Joint Action Phase). Combining these two would put the test before any rout and pursuit movement but after commanders move and attempt bolstering, which is significant as commanders can join and might be able to try to bolster flagging morale in nearby BGs that would have to test.

BTW, the practical tactical question with blocking break off in this situation is to decide whether to block them from more than 1 MU away to allow the Cav to break off a short distance out of contact so there is no pursuit.

At 1 MU or less the break off is cancelled, cohesion drops, and there will be a pursuit. This pursuit may be followed by removal of the routers at the end of the JAP if their rout is blocked (to block or not is another tactical decision).

Mike