The Red Crow-Bar - Place where the (not so) sober ideas born

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:31 am

Guys (...or are there any lurking ladies here?

)

I have the bad habit of inventing stupid ideas... and also quite forgetful (I should drink more..

) and my mind is distracted with such worthless things... like work

I'd like to collect our ideas into one place before they will be forgotten and lost in the depths of topics... If you agree and willing to share and/or recall your idea or something that has been mentioned somewhere, post it here (or a link to the discussing topic). I will list them in the first topic here, and the rest of the topic can be discussion. It can be a sticky later on if successful enough..

Let us dream about things freely here... maayyyyybe some of them will eventually interesting for the devs

GabeKnight · Post by **GabeKnight** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Many of the mentioned changes/improvements can already be done with modding. Like improving the subs, adding traits to units or unit classes (e.g. Slowrepair, quickretreat,...), etc.

Some of the ideas are cool, like heavy arty suffering from efficiency loss and light arty doesn't. Or roads finally allowing movement of mechanical units through forests and mountains. Or no efficiency loss during train transport, or "refugees" units, or weather actually influencing units, or...

I don't know about the "bridge" ideas, though. Creating supply/transport bottlenecks could prove interesting - or game breaking.

And on the other hand, I found too many units and thus too many choices to be unpractical. In the end, I'll buy the strongest units only anyway. E.g. I really woudn't want to bother with different engineer units (construction/combat), as I don't like deploying them much generally.
Just recently, I've played with a mod that had a ton of switchable plane modes (dogfighter <-> bomber, strat. bomber <-> tact. bomber), but ultimately the real use within the scens was very limited, to be honest. Most of the time, the planes stuck to their designated roles. The "switch" was used during the final phase of the mission only, to mop up remaining enemy troops...

Balancing things out the right way is really the hard part. Subtle changes can have unforseen consequences. Just increasing the movement speed of the destroyers by one hex or increasing the torpedo attack/cooldown values a bit does change gameplay with the existing scens immensely. Sometimes you really have to be careful what you wish for...

kondi754 · Post by **kondi754** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:37 pm

That's why I think that instead of introducing such changes that can spoil the fun, it is better for developers to create more diverse campaigns, more diverse armies, using more unique abilities or unique units for a given faction, etc.
Operational teathers (on which the campaigns are being conducted) should also have a much stronger impact on the game itself, on the tactics and strategy used, on building the core...
I believe that the desire of many players to improve OoB is caused by the fact that each DLC and each faction and finally each core is built and played in the same way...
Only, unfortunately, the adventure with OoB slowly ends in the reality of World War II, so maybe OoB 2 will be better thought out and designed in this aspect

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:46 pm

Yes sure some ideas are game changers, I agree. This is rather just a brainfart topic in which we can review, collect and - judge them. Nothing can be foretold or decided without trying it out first.

I believe that the desire of many players to improve OoB is caused by the fact that each DLC and each faction and finally each core is built and played in the same way...

Hm... damn I forgot what I wanted to tell about this... AHHHH yes, challenges like playing the same campaign with a different nation or "infantry only" etc etc are good initiatives.
It is contradictory that exactly the best game feature - "owning" and improving one's personal army aka. The Core - creates that situation you mentioned. Playing a less gamey Core with realistic choice of units, a historical OOB is not rewarding or attractive for players - so they build the same maxed out stuff each time. Yes, like me I also did the same.
I wanted something else but really forgot...

Well +1 for OOB 2

bebro · Post by **bebro** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:01 pm

If I could throw one myself it would be to make land-based recon more useful in his role by allowing it to spot units hidden in forest or cities at close range - maybe just as a "enemy unit is there" marker (without revealing the exact type) like People's General did IIRC.

Currently air recon is cheap, can move freely, and reveal as much as vehicles, so clearly the better choice, while recon vehicles are of limited use only.

However, as I'm not a coder I have no idea if that can be implemented easily in OOB.

13obo · Post by **13obo** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:18 pm

bebro wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:01 pm If I could throw one myself it would be to make land-based recon more useful in his role by allowing it to spot units hidden in forest or cities at close range - maybe just as a "enemy unit is there" marker (without revealing the exact type) like People's General did IIRC.

Currently air recon is cheap, can move freely, and reveal as much as vehicles, so clearly the better choice, while recon vehicles are of limited use only.

However, as I'm not a coder I have no idea if that can be implemented easily in OOB.

I always wondered which bit of OOB do you develop actually! Care to share?

bebro · Post by **bebro** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:30 pm

I started out purely as 3d modeller, did the bulk of vehicle/ship/air unit models that are in the game now.

Now I do map/scn/cam design of selected content like ES.

13obo · Post by **13obo** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:39 pm

Hats off then as those are really good! Please slap (gently) the person messing the unuts.csv every time though.

kondi754 · Post by **kondi754** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:17 pm

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:46 pm Yes sure some ideas are game changers, I agree. This is rather just a brainfart topic in which we can review, collect and - judge them. Nothing can be foretold or decided without trying it out first.

I believe that the desire of many players to improve OoB is caused by the fact that each DLC and each faction and finally each core is built and played in the same way...
Hm... damn I forgot what I wanted to tell about this... AHHHH yes, challenges like playing the same campaign with a different nation or "infantry only" etc etc are good initiatives.
It is contradictory that exactly the best game feature - "owning" and improving one's personal army aka. The Core - creates that situation you mentioned. Playing a less gamey Core with realistic choice of units, a historical OOB is not rewarding or attractive for players - so they build the same maxed out stuff each time. Yes, like me I also did the same.
I wanted something else but really forgot...

Well +1 for OOB 2

Don't you think Devs should disturb and make it more difficult for a player to create such a powerful core?
I understand that the players are intuitively building and expecting such game development, but is not that boring?
Do you know the game "rock - paper - scissors"?

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:53 pm

It reminds me of college time role playing sessions... when we ended up playing with demigod characters.. poor DM could not invent any more challenge. A party of world destroyers... :rollingonthefloorcryingfromlaughterbeinghalfdrunk"

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:08 pm

bebro wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:01 pm If I could throw one myself it would be to make land-based recon more useful in his role by allowing it to spot units hidden in forest or cities at close range - maybe just as a "enemy unit is there" marker (without revealing the exact type) like People's General did IIRC.

Currently air recon is cheap, can move freely, and reveal as much as vehicles, so clearly the better choice, while recon vehicles are of limited use only.

However, as I'm not a coder I have no idea if that can be implemented easily in OOB.

That's what I call a good idea Bebro

I noticed "Land radar sign" among the graphics. It could be a sign you mentioned. A recon unit with ability to "land-radar" nearby concealed units or those in fog-of war but within range. Land contact "something's there" inf or vehicle.
Air recon sees at a range, land recon sees into the depths. Very good..

PS.. I sent PM.. sry if I wrote something wrong(

kondi754 · Post by **kondi754** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:31 pm

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:53 pm It reminds me of college time role playing sessions... when we ended up playing with demigod characters.. poor DM could not invent any more challenge. A party of world destroyers... :rollingonthefloorcryingfromlaughterbeinghalfdrunk"

I just wanted to write that building a core in such games as OoB or PC is like building a character in RPG and that's why Devs have to deliver to this monster more and more powerful bosses...

For me, playing in RPG in university times always ended with an alcoholic libation, and during the game the action slowly moved forward because we were laughing all the time

bru888 · Post by **bru888** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:47 pm

This is a great thread.

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:54 pm

kondi754 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:31 pm
Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:53 pm It reminds me of college time role playing sessions... when we ended up playing with demigod characters.. poor DM could not invent any more challenge. A party of world destroyers... :rollingonthefloorcryingfromlaughterbeinghalfdrunk"
I just wanted to write that building a core in such games as OoB or PC is like building a character in RPG and that's why Devs have to deliver to this monster more and more powerful bosses...
For me, playing in RPG in university times always ended with an alcoholic libation, and during the game the action slowly moved forward because we were laughing all the time

Exactly that's what I meant./ Yea... gameplay was soon dead, drowned into the tsunami of black-indecent-nonpoliticallycorrect-alcoholic humor abomination... The Rise of the Firewater Elemental

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:20 pm

Well I just had to try - I was sure it does not work that way

Land unit with radar sees only air (and maybe sea)

: Screenshot 2.jpg (533.76 KiB) Viewed 2891 times

kondi754 · Post by **kondi754** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:34 pm

So this is the melody of the future, OoB 2 maybe?
If one day there will be created OoB's campaigns describing modern conflicts, then probably the improvement of reconnaissance units will go in this direction. It would look foolish if the recon unit "doesn't see" the enemy unit from a distance of 2-3 hexes with modern military technology ... or even technologies available in the 1960s or 1970s

Admiral_Horthy · Post by **Admiral_Horthy** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:55 pm

Recon units' sights are rather an abstract... they don't actually have "land surveillance radars" to keep eyes open. Scouts observe, watch trails, smart, on alert - often speak local language to hear rumors, chatter of drunken enemy, capture and interrogate POW.. and usually are damned old foxes to sniff out suspicious activity. RPG terms "alert sense". Also they often hide themselves and silently observe - then report <- this is why I missed foot scouts and I will add some to 3A to test the concept I have in mind for OOB:Vietnam. I know there are commandos they are similar yet with different purpose. USSR had Razvedchiki - recon troop - which is recon + harassment commando at the same time as well as capable to operate among partisans to support them even in civilian clothes. Predecessors of future army-spetsnaz.

kondi754 · Post by **kondi754** » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:24 pm

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:55 pm Recon units' sights are rather an abstract... they don't actually have "land surveillance radars" to keep eyes open. Scouts observe, watch trails, smart, on alert - often speak local language to hear rumors, chatter of drunken enemy, capture and interrogate POW.. and usually are damned old foxes to sniff out suspicious activity. RPG terms "alert sense". Also they often hide themselves and silently observe - then report <- this is why I missed foot scouts and I will add some to 3A to test the concept I have in mind for OOB:Vietnam. I know there are commandos they are similar yet with different purpose. USSR had Razvedchiki - recon troop - which is recon + harassment commando at the same time as well as capable to operate among partisans to support them even in civilian clothes. Predecessors of future army-spetsnaz.

Yes, I know

As in most games, we talk about things in a certain simplification
Like infantry unit in such (operational level ) game as OoB - I suppose "inside" such infantry unit (e.g. German Inf 40 - I think it's division) there are infantry regiments with support of anti-tank, organic field artillery, pioneers, recon armoured cars, anti-arcraft, communication, hospital, military postal service and maybe even a slaughterhouse and a bakery

it's just an animation on the map symbolizing from 7,000 to 20,000 people depending on the faction

EDIT. sorry, strengthened Japanese inf divisions in 1941/42 had even more than 40,000 people
e.g. divisions that landed in the Philippines in 1941
EDIT 2. I forgot about transport and supply units, so that's all are symbolized by three soldiers

The Red Crow-Bar - Place where the (not so) sober ideas born

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