Charging a BG that is mid- interpenetration

[Polkovnik]

This unusual situation came up in a game last night. An enemy BG of Cav has partly interpenetrated a LF BG, so some Cav bases are on each side of the LF BG.
I charge both BGs with a BG of Cav. What should happen ?
We played it that the LF evade, so we moved them first. Then we realigned the bases of the partly interpentrated Cav so they we a "proper" BG again, and then worked out the charge. This seemed the least messy solution.

The interpenatration rules do get a bit messy when a BG has partly interpenetrated and then something else happens.

[petedalby]

Sounds like an entirely sensible way to resolve it.

Pete

[marioslaz]

Your case is quite interesting, and I found 2 important questions about, not only related to your particular case.

First. It's important who is interpenetrating and who is interpenetrated. If Cav is interpenetrating they are disordered and so i guess they must fight disordered after LF flee. Perhaps just in impact phase, but it seems reasonable to me that they fight at least one round disordered due to interpenetration (Cav is disordered due to a partial interpenetration in the moment charge is declared against them). If LF were interpenetrating, Cav would not be disordered.

Second. At page 48 rules state:"no wheel or turn by either battle group is permitted (except a 180 degree turn by skirmishers)". So if LF want to evade from a charge to their flank or rear they cannot choose to evade to their back, but they need to evade away from charger. This can conflict with the rule above, because they cannot wheel during a partial interpenetration to align to charge direction (and this is reasonable, because it's difficult to imagine how they can manoeuver in this condition). I guess that in this case evader first terminate interpenetration, then wheel.

Bye
Mario.

[shall]

This unusual situation came up in a game last night. An enemy BG of Cav has partly interpenetrated a LF BG, so some Cav bases are on each side of the LF BG.
I charge both BGs with a BG of Cav. What should happen ?
We played it that the LF evade, so we moved them first. Then we realigned the bases of the partly interpentrated Cav so they we a "proper" BG again, and then worked out the charge. This seemed the least messy solution.

The interpenatration rules do get a bit messy when a BG has partly interpenetrated and then something else happens.

It sounds like the cav were interpentratingt the LF. What happens depends on the facing of the LF relative to the charge.

If the LF are facing the charger adn not charged in flank or rear they can make a 180 degree turn and evade to their rear.
If the LF are facing away or are charged in flank or rear they can only evade if they are already facing the line of charge as they cannot make and evade move because this needs a wheel to get onto the line of charge (they would then be trapped where they are and hit).

The cavalry are disordered during a partial interpenetration. So if the LF are trapped they would still count this disadvantage and may not even get a second rank in melee.

If the cavalry are freed by a LF evade movew then they reform in either players manouvre phase. Thus they fight the impact in a mess.

I think its reasonable to consider that the disorder remains until after they reform as it says they stay so until the interpenetration is completed in a subsequent turn (which to me means when they ahve reformed one way or another).

Hope that helps

Si

[marioslaz]

Mmmm... it sounds a little messy. Sure your answer respects rules, but the result didn't convinced me about historical matters. Let's start from an example. One BG of skirmishers is interpenetrating a BG of non skirmishers. Skirmishers facing are opposite of battle troops because they are retreating after harassing enemy. Skirmishers cannot free the battle troop BG and are stuck in. An enemy BG is in charge reach at their back, but with the front slightly tilted, so their charge would be a back charge with a direction not perpendicular to the back of skirmishers. If BG charge skirmishers cannot they evade and must turn to fight because they cannot wheel and so they cannot make a legal evade move due they are in a mid interpenetration?
You can maintain that because they are in the mid of a difficult situation they are cought by charger because they cannot react as usual. But this situation is a legal interpenetration and in any other situations they could manage to evade interpenetrating friends. More, remember that this game has a system of alternate turn, so it should avoid that the mechanism of game becomes an advantage for someone.
So, I would stand up for this resolution: skirmishers evade in their actual direction since they free other BG, then they wheel to align to charge direction.
If otherwise the battle troops BG are stuck in a mid interpenetration while charged, the situation is more complicated for BG owner. But in this case rules work well. BG fight as disordered since skirmishers free them, and this will happen in the manoeuvre phase of skirmishers owner, since skirmishers don't need to evade due to battle troops (in a mid interpenetration, bases of BG interpenetrating are beyond BG interpenetrated, so they make a screen between skirmishers and enemy charging).
Bye
Mario.

[Polkovnik]

Thanks for the answers. The enemy Cav BG was facing away from my cavalry, so the Disorder would not matter as the Cav were going to drop a cohesion level anyway. LF were in column at an angle (but not a flank or rear attack), so it looks like we got it about right.

The other similar situation that happened a couple of games ago was that a BG of my cavalry pursued a broken BG and partially interpenetrated friendly LF. However, one end of my Cavalry contacted the flank of an enemy BG (but not as a flank charge). We probably should have fought this in the next impact phase, with my cavalry disordered until my LF could move free, but what we actually did was let my Cavalry wheel a bit to miss the enemy BG and just avoid the mess !

[shall]

Mmmm... it sounds a little messy.

Well its a messy situation to end up in when charged ....

I think the rules as they apply to it are a bit cumbersome, but do the right thing in making life a bit tricky for the charged BGs.

More by luck than design in this case if we are honest.

Main lesson - best not to get charged during a partial interpenetration!

Si