Beware: Tiger H is very expensive junk..:)

[terminator]

I think that unreliable units could be considered as prototypes and we should not be able to buy them (SU-76, Panther D, Tiger H...). Nopurchase for all the unreliable units ?

[13obo]

The Unreliability feature is a two edged sword... I don want to badmouth it, since it is a factor that makes difference... adds detail. But, here come the ever existing BUT.

Such factor is a serious depriving in OOB environment, and the biggest problem is that it affects only the selected units.

Let's say, the T-34 has .... 60% reliability... the Panther D has 30% (just examples). The difference is only 30% but the T-34 will never break down.
If reliability is a factor we want to fiddle with, then it should be introduced to all units ... yes to infantry because they catch typhus and diarrhea . Then we have to introduce logistics, maintenance and medical units and drag them along. Is this a good idea?
Notoriously unreliable units may get this feature, but again other tech can be equally POS if there are no maintenance and supply units available... A lot more equipment can be "Unreliable" by this viewpoint, like the french walking bunker type infantry tanks, but again do we want to introduce reliability factor?

1. I think this should better be linked to combat action. OR should happen less on good terrain.
2. OR should happen less alltogether. Take the above example, let's mark the 50% reliability the margin for being poor and give the percentage above that a chance for breakdown (50-30 =20)
3. Have a maintenance class unit within X hexes at the end of the turn that removes chances of breakdown for the next turn.
4. Have these units as unique figures for specific battles where it's really important to have this feature (early access units, everybody is unfamiliar how to use fight or maintenance them). Have their "bugfixed" variants available soon after for normal use.

Very well said. Unreliable doesn't add to gameplay that couldn't have been done in another way- like tweaking the combat statistics of those tanks.

For ex, the early PZIII/PZIV tanks shouldn't be matching the combat statistics of T-34 or Char B tanks, yet they do in OOB. Why? Because designers decided that having a radio and thus giving the commander ability to co-ordinate in real time is worth a lot more than a more powerful gun/sloped armor. But no one introduced the trait "radio" to German tanks, all they did was tweak the combat statistics of those tanks and thus have simulated the advantage the early German tanks had.

Now one could argue that tweaking down too much early Tiger/Panther performance will just make them identical to PZIII/IV variants, but then one could tweak them just a bit by making the early Panther/Tiger just a bit weaker, but more expensive, and costing 1 more CP than current variants. This way one simulates the extreme rarity of those tanks in early stages of the war, so the player won't be able to afford more than one. Sounds much better than introducing a trait that is used for a handful of units that makes them also useless.

[terminator]

For ex, the early PZIII/PZIV tanks shouldn't be matching the combat statistics of T-34 or Char B tanks, yet they do in OOB. Why? Because designers decided that having a radio and thus giving the commander ability to co-ordinate in real time is worth a lot more than a more powerful gun/sloped armor. But no one introduced the trait "radio" to German tanks, all they did was tweak the combat statistics of those tanks and thus have simulated the advantage the early German tanks had.

Radio Doctrine 1941-43 (Germany at War - Barbarossa 1941) :

Capture d’écran (84).png (413.27 KiB) Viewed 3248 times

[kondi754]

You can't make everything by modifying the statistics, I think it's very bad that there isn't "Radio" trait in OoB
In the Red Army there were no radio receivers in many tanks yet in 1944/45

[13obo]

Ok maybe Radio wasn't the best example because a tank either has it or not. However with reliability, it's on a range from 0-100% and you cannot say suddenly below 50% reliability, the tank becomes unreliable and above that it is good to go, because then you need to do something else when one tank has 60% and another has 90% reliability.

[13obo]

Btw what happened with PoorOldSpike? I miss that fella! Hope he's still playing.

[Andy2012]

Btw what happened with PoorOldSpike? I miss that fella! Hope he's still playing.

Yeah, odd. He went silent after being told not to promote HBalck mods. (To be fair, he didnt know about the policy. So no biggie, actually.) Hopefully, he didnt run into anybody taking offense at him wearing his Waffen SS camo jacket in town. (True story.)

[bru888]

Btw what happened with PoorOldSpike? I miss that fella! Hope he's still playing.

That's remarkable! Because it was just what I was going to say. It seems that some fans are like super nova; they burn bright for a while, then burn out. Some return after a while and some do not. Well, I hope he comes back, too.

[13obo]

Yeah, he was so kind to newbies providing these long detailed analyses. May have ran out of energy or just switched to playing another game like any sane person would do (but not us).

[terminator]

Those who have problems with the tank tiger should read this authentic textbook :

Die Tigerfibel Handbuch des deutschen Tiger Panzers : (The manual for Tiger crews)

1200px-Tigerfibel_cover(1).jpg (82.21 KiB) Viewed 3122 times

(Description: The cover says For Platoon Leaders and Tigermen. The Tigerprimer...what a fast thing! )

You will find advice there :

ShermanChart(1).jpg (147.75 KiB) Viewed 3122 times

And at the end, you will be happy ...

1943_Tigerfibel_Sta_2.jpg (89.43 KiB) Viewed 3122 times

(Description: Says that Barrelbum announces his engagement to Elvira.)

The link : http://www.alanhamby.com/tigerfibel.shtml

[GabeKnight]

Wow. If I'm reading the chart right, does that mean a Sherman had to close in up to 800m to a Tiger and only shots to the side and back could be dangerous? But on the other hand the Tigers could destroy Shermans up to 2000m far away (or 800m with shots to the front)? That's quite the advantage...holy cow.

[kondi754]

800m to the front, 2000m side and back according to this instruction

[Horst]

The unreliable trait might be too harsh on the early Tiger compared to the Panther D, but it serves well its rarity during '42 that hardly anyone purchases it.
OOB does quite a good job to leave random results out of the game, but this trait is an exception. I'd rather change unreliable to 100% chance for 1 eff-drop when moving. That's possibly more manageable, especially for the AI which has no good sense for efficiency.

[terminator]

KV1Chart(1).jpg (147.2 KiB) Viewed 3078 times

T34Chart(1).jpg (142.32 KiB) Viewed 3078 times

ChurchillChart(1).jpg (141.27 KiB) Viewed 3078 times

[Horst]

These are cool charts but rather off-topic.

[GabeKnight]

These are cool charts but rather off-topic.

Why? I'd rather say those charts quite effectually proved, that the Tiger is not "very expensive junk", as stated by the original OP/topic

(and thanks terminator, I liked those charts, too)

[Horst]

These are cool charts but rather off-topic.

Why? I'd rather say those charts quite effectually proved, that the Tiger is not "very expensive junk", as stated by the original OP/topic

The performance of the Tiger in history isn't questioned in the OP, rather the harsh unreliable trait. The Tigerfibel was released mid 43 when the Tiger was already revised a couple of times.

[conboy]

Mateys, I really enjoyed reading this thread! thanks to all contributors for the intelligent, informative discussion.

conboy

[hrafnkolbrandr]

I used my unreliable tigers to good effect by using them in pairs. So if one triggered, I'd get another chance with the other. And when neither triggered, the combination of the two was absolutely devastating.

The trait, and having to play this way, did slow down my advances a bit, but I mostly used them in places where I expected a slog anyways, and they did a great job.