The Rally Point (discussion and questions)

[stockwellpete]

Good morning,
I have been unable to setup a game in Late Antiquity, division C involving Rhoxolani 350BC-24AD vs Visigoth 419-621AD, I suppose that is so because there's no overlap in time frames ?
It's also possible I haven't had enough coffee yet for my brain to work properly. Please let me know if I missed something.

You just need to toggle off the Date (and possibly also the Geography) filter.

Stimo, yes, I have just checked this. At the very bottom of the Enemy Army list window there are two large filter buttons called "Date" and "Geographical". You need to toggle off both filters. All army match-ups are possible in FOG2.

[stockwellpete]

I see. Well in that case I apologise.

However, I don't think anyone was suggesting that the rules should change during this season. We were merely providing feedback on our experiences with the new rules so far.

Apology accepted, Richard.

[markwatson360]

I have 're read all the above and I agree completely with RBS both on the specific issue at hand and also on his feelings towards the antagonism generated once "the human factor" is introduced into a neutral arena like a computer regulated game such as this.

Indeed the tone of this discussion kind of proves my point and is in stark contrast to the excellent spirit that Seasons 1 and 2 were conducted (spookily enough when everything on the battlefield was left to the computer) .

I have decided life is too short to get involved in such things so I will be resigning the games underway and will not be participating further and shall return to my single player idyll.

I wish all the remaining players all the best.

I am very sorry to see this, I don't see why there should be any antagonism, i've not experienced any. It's certainly not something worth resigning over. I would just see out this season and see what happens and finish the games you have commited to playing. I really hope you reconsider resigning (partly because you're the only player i've beaten so far! ) cheers Mark

[stockwellpete]

I am very sorry to see this, I don't see why there should be any antagonism, i've not experienced any. It's certainly not something worth resigning over. I would just see out this season and see what happens and finish the games you have commited to playing. I really hope you reconsider resigning (partly because you're the only player i've beaten so far! ) cheers Mark

I think that part of the issue here might be to do with the new automated tournaments that Slitherine are now running where everything is regulated by the computer and, very quickly, this has become the new "normal" for players who have only played FOG2 (I have nothing against these tournaments at all). But, for a lot of us "old veterans" who played in LOEG and the FOG1DL with FOG1 over 5 years ago now, the "normal" then was to come to friendly agreements about things. And as pantherboy has reminded us, LOEG operated with a self-regulating restart rule for many seasons without any issues for him to deal with. Players just talked to one another and sorted things out amicably. I much prefer this older way of doing things.

Someone very famous and perceptive once described human beings as becoming "mere appendages of machines" as modern society progresses. I think that is basically true, but there is no need for us to timidly acquiesce to this process in our leisure time.

[Stimovsky]

You just need to toggle off the Date (and possibly also the Geography) filter.

Stimo, yes, I have just checked this. At the very bottom of the Enemy Army list window there are two large filter buttons called "Date" and "Geographical". You need to toggle off both filters. All army match-ups are possible in FOG2.

Thanks to both of you. As I suspected it, the cause of the problem was just a lack of caffeine.

[klayeckles]

jeepers folks! this is all for fun! we play for fun...some times we lose, sometimes we win...and we always have the option of blaming our bad luck on shake of the dice. But we ought to ALWAYS TREAT OUR OPPONENTS WITH RESPECT AND KINDNESS. and this new "rule" is optional...and requires agmt from both players (gee wiz, just like two generals that BOTH don't want to fight on a certain field.)...so play the game as usual with these OPTIONS:

inform your opponent you never want re starts (basically letting her know in advance that there will not be mutual agmt)
OR
do your set up, review the map, and REQUEST a restart.
OR
do your setup review the map and DON"T request/agree on a restart.
and if you want a restart but your opponent doesn't ...play on. your scouts did a lousy job picking a battlefield, and now it is up to you to fight an "uphill battle". be a hero and win anyway, or die a valiant death that your opponent will speak highly of in the AAR!
have fun, and enjoy the community of good folk, and learn a few new tricks perhaps at the expense of your ego...I've always found that's good medicine.

[SimonLancaster]

Let’s just all relax. Restarts are part of the rules for this season. We have discussed the main issues and everyone can make their own minds up about it. Some players will just state clearly at the beginning of a battle that they don’t accept restarts and that is up to them. Other players may well want to restart.

All the best for the coming games!

[Ludendorf]

Some of my most memorable games were played on tough battlefields; one of the best games I ever played was one where I had a Hunnic cavalry army and my opponent was entrenched in the hills. I swarmed him with horse archers and began to get the upper hand only for him to launch what I can only describe as a heroic counterattack with his heavy cavalry from the hills against my much lighter medium horse. It ended on a nail biter as he just managed to break one last unit on the final turn and win the battle.

That taught me a lot of lessons, particularly how to build a horse archer army to handle bad terrain and the dangers of over-committing while trying to use skirmishers to force an entrenched opponent to move. You can learn a LOT from playing on ground your army isn't normally supposed to handle.

[nyczar]

I for one would love to see a screen shot(s) of terrain that led to a mutually agreed upon restart. This is less from a standpoint of forming an opinion on the restart rule or on game element randomization and more about wanting to see examples of vision. Hence, I am not talking about maps with mountain on one flank and water on another. I am talking about less obvious situations where an attack by either side is suicidal. My interest is quite selfish. My game lacks sufficient vision. Some maps and combinations I see clearly, others are murky leading to clumsy play and lop sided losses. I figure I could learn something about these murky situations if I saw some of these restarted game maps; maybe I could glean something about a circumstance that is not quite yet in my gray matter.

I know what I am talking about exists because I have lost many a battle now from not seeing the map clearly. Some of you amaze me with your clarity; In the in-game feedback I have read posts from my gracious opponents that capture well the path of a battle before it starts or soon after the start. That is why I ask for some sharing here, as vision I believe is a skill that may be learned.

Wizards, worry not, i am sure you will find a way to stay a step ahead.

[Barrold713]

This is the screen shot of the game FightingPoultry and I restarted because the terrain forced us into suicide attacks
BDH

[paulmcneil]

don't agree with the concept of "negative matches" some armies are good in attack and some in defence, same with terrain, just make the board big enough to surround an opponent if they are on the defensive, get rid of boards that are 1/3 water, and remove bulk of poor terrain from board edges

[Morbio]

don't agree with the concept of "negative matches" some armies are good in attack and some in defence, same with terrain, just make the board big enough to surround an opponent if they are on the defensive, get rid of boards that are 1/3 water, and remove bulk of poor terrain from board edges

Poor terrain is subjective. Forest is poor terrain for Pikes, but is great for MF. I think the suggestion of larger battlegrounds is fine, although movement range may limit what is practically useful in 20 turns. I think the terrain generated should be completely random, within certain logical constraints (e.g. intermixed desert and marsh, or marsh on a slope). I do find it pointless having a river that effectively removes part of the battlefield, although I guess this is essentially creating a bottleneck that could be useful to an army (e.g. Thermopylae). On that point it always makes me smile when occasionally an opponent puts part of his army (usually archers) on the other side of a river with no crossing points, move a hex away and they become redundant... although it could be argued that this action has caused me to leave a gap that could be exploited. I've even seen infantry and cavalry on the wrong side and then this really does make me chuckle

[stockwellpete]

As most of you will know, we had a big discussion in "The Rally Point" about the sharp increase of draws in Season 2 of the FOG2DL. The rate more than doubled and over 10% of matches in the season were drawn.* Around a third of them were agreed 0-0 draws where both players agreed that the terrain was too difficult to play on. So I will be keeping an eye on the number of draws this season and I will update this thread each Sunday with the latest statistics as part of the regular Sunday round-up. We have just had the fiftieth result of this season posted and so far we have had just two draws (so that is 4% of the total matches completed). Both these draws were high-scoring affairs where both players in each game won 1 point each for causing at least 20% casualties to their opponent. There have been no draws yet where players have failed to score a point and there have been no agreed 0-0 draws.

*In Season 1 there were 34 draws in 751 matches = 4.12% of matches were drawn (1 in 25).
In Season 2 there were 68 draws in 668 matches = 10.15% of matches were drawn (1 in 10).

[SimonLancaster]

At least someone is still laughing...!

[shadowblack]

On that point it always makes me smile when occasionally an opponent puts part of his army (usually archers) on the other side of a river with no crossing points, move a hex away and they become redundant... although it could be argued that this action has caused me to leave a gap that could be exploited.

I have done this on more than one occasion for just the reason you stated.

[Ludendorf]

I think if my opponent did that I'd be more inclined to fire back with my own skirmishers than give up the protection of the river. Though standing your army with just one square between it and the river, with a heavy or medium infantry unit standing behind the unit closest to the river to exert a ZOC there, can have a similar effect. You can still stop enemy cavalry from pouring through, you're just using a ZOC to trap them beside your line rather than blocking the path past your line directly.

[Hendricus]

Classical Antiquity Div C IMC versus Hendricus, Galatians versus Achaemenid Persian.
We have a map filled with mountains, IMC suggested we could restart and I countered that with an offer to draw.
I think my army dreams of this situation that they can shoot from all sides at an army that must come through a small gap.
I would gladly accept a draw, as my army needs terrain and in most cases it is too open for my taste.
I see these mountains as the natural border and if that is respected I think a draw is good enough.
If the Galatians press on we have a battle like marathon, just a wider pass.
Looking forward to the Galatian commanders decision.

[stockwellpete]

Classical Antiquity Div C IMC versus Hendricus, Galatians versus Achaemenid Persian.
We have a map filled with mountains, IMC suggested we could restart and I countered that with an offer to draw.
I think my army dreams of this situation that they can shoot from all sides at an army that must come through a small gap.
I would gladly accept a draw, as my army needs terrain and in most cases it is too open for my taste.
I see these mountains as the natural border and if that is respected I think a draw is good enough.
If the Galatians press on we have a battle like marathon, just a wider pass.
Looking forward to the Galatian commanders decision.

You will get no points though in a drawn match where you have not inflicted at least 20% losses on your opponent. So it might be in your interest to accept the offer of a new map and see if you can get some terrain to use.

[SimonLancaster]

After saying that the devil offers restarts I do have a situation in one of my league games where my opponent is sitting up on a 300 metre hill with practically his entire army..

I am moving around but with only 24 turns I may not be able to make a lot of progress. I will post a pic when the battle is over. Looking like a draw to me.

Saying all this why would he want to restart? He has the high ground.

[stockwellpete]

After saying that the devil offers restarts I do have a situation in one of my league games where my opponent is sitting up on a 300 metre hill with practically his entire army..

I am moving around but with only 24 turns I may not be able to make a lot of progress. I will post a pic when the battle is over. Looking like a draw to me.

Saying all this why would he want to restart? He has the high ground.

He might want a re-start if he realises that his position is impregnable and that you are not able to attack him there. If he just sits there then he is likely to end up with no points, the same as a defeat.