Upgrade Questions

[Buffalohump]

I just completed Stalingrad Ruins at Field Marshal level and about to begin Tatsinskaya. I have in my core two Panzer II Flamms that have +3 attack heros. One started life as a Panzer III and the other as a KV-1. When both received their attack heros I converted them to Flamms to maximize their kill rates to get to the next hero as fast as I could prior to the later campaigns. I have never had this happen to me before but one during Ruins got a plus three defense hero which I was excited about as I value defense heros for tanks, infantry, and anti tank most. On the immediate next turn he received a move hero. He is now my favorite pet unit. I am currently partnering this unit with a +2 defense Grenadier, a +1 move 21cm Nblwf, and a +4 (2 heroes) PzKfz 232. This combination has worked well for me in Stalingrad. My first question is how survivable is the Flamm moving forward at Field Marshal? Should I shelve him until Tiger or Panther become available and work on more units?

[TSPC37730]

In short, not very. Flamm panzers & other relatively weak units such as mobile artillery, AA & recon units are magnets for the AI in '43 & beyond. If left exposed, the AI will usually attack these types of units first & repeatedly - often resulting in their loss. IMO, there are some scenarios where you have to attack & can use them, but, it must be with extreme caution. You have to scout well ahead to ensure there's no groups of tanks ready to pounce during the AI's turn.

You've pretty much had the best luck you can get when you received the +3 heroes. I would definitely recommend holding your Flamm Panzers back until you can upgrade them to something more survivable. In the short term you can work on developing other units. Good luck!

[Buffalohump]

Sorry misspoke. Just started Kotelnikovo. Thanks for the answer, pretty much what I was afraid of. This play through has been my first real use of the Flamms past novelty. My Flamms are sitting out right now while I work on gaining experience for a couple of Marder IIIs. I think my new pet will sit and wait for Panther to become available while the other will upgrade to Tiger.

[hugh2711]

When paired with a wurfrahmen they are superb at completely destroying partisans and enemy infantry behind the front lines, even strength 15 units with no losses. There are alot of scenarios with this in the later half of the GC and they are essential in some scenarios however you cant let them near the frontlines. They are magnets for being attacked and are very quickly destroyed if they are in the front in the second half of the GC.

[proline]

Flamms are totally survivable if you never, ever, let opposing mech units fire on them even once. They roast soft targets alive at any point in the game.

[Elkarlo]

I loved them in 42 but did Kharkov and upgraded one to a tiger and used the other to take the city and clear the hills and woods before it. They're Def very vulnerable now. I upgraded the other to a tiger afterwards.
I guess for partisan sweeps they're good, we they can get there fast and not worry about entrenchment and terrain. Outside if that, the Soviets really go after them.
They also don't do that great against 43 Infantry. 3 to 9 isn't agood ratio for armor. Needing artillery to soften up before an attack kinds defeats their point.
Anyhow they're great for Stalingrad, but after that become a liability very quickly

[captainjack]

A few years back someone posted that if you treat Flammpanzers like mobile pioneers they work very well.

The wurfrahmen flamm panzer, and 10/4 AA make a very effective team for tidying up behind the front line. Oleh Dir or a kradschutzen make a nice extra member.

[goose_2]

I have 3 Flamm's that I am saving solely for City maps, at this point probably Berlin 1945, but I am patient. This is in my Manstein playthrough and I have found various maps where I could deploy one at some point in some scenarios to help mop up some soft targets easily...

I love the Flamms

[TSPC37730]

Flamms are totally survivable if you never, ever, let opposing mech units fire on them even once. They roast soft targets alive at any point in the game.

This is very true, however, with the ridiculous preponderance of enemy armor units as you advance in the scenarios, it is much easier said than done. It only takes one mistake. Enemy air & switchable 85mm AA guns can also be devasating. IMO, they require so much care & babysitting that it can alter your play style & slow you down. They may not always be worth bringing along & I usually prefer to upgrade them.

[Buffalohump]

These are all good points. At the moment I have sidelined my two Flamms. I am playing my own modified version of the game. I do not buy any additional armour. I was able too fill in the hole right now by upgrading a Pz IV with move hero and a KV-1B with move hero to Tigers. I am typically only deploying 8 to 10 Panzers per scenario (including SE units) The vast majority of my army is infantry and artillery with a few antitank and AA mixed in as well. I want to stay under the prestige cap and am trying to play a more realistic core. I know this is probably going to put me in a bad situation later. Any way that being said I do not think I can continue to risk such an experienced unit and I don’t think I have luxury of allowing him to sit out until needed. I have a personal fondness for the Panther series and I think he will sit until it becomes available.

[Buffalohump]

Continued post.
I don’t mean to sound like I have made up my mind. I have a pretty weak stable of tanks and don’t believe I can let such an experienced unit sit idle for long. I am trying to artificially hamstring what I can do. I never have played the eastern front past the end of 44. I have always become bored with a super experienced stable of King Tigers and holding against unending waves of soviets then counter attacking. I appreciate the input.

[AnalogGamer]

Now that I have discovered the wonder of the Flamm, I have one that is a keeper. Keeping one does not impact softcap much as it sits in the barn for many battles. When it comes out with a Wurf and a 7/2, it sweeps rear areas clean in short order. Just have to pick your spots in the later years. Even if it gets zapped, no huge loss.

[Buffalohump]

New question, I am at Belgorod, I have not touched my Flamms yet. I have remaining in my core two T-34s and 1 KV-1B left with 1 to 2 stars. I have about 69000 prestige. I disbanded every piece of captured equipment with out at least 1 Star. I am looking to upgrade them to standard German equipment. I also am thinking of upgrading my 2 Panzer IIIN’s. I am leaning towards upgrading all captured equipment to Panzer IVG’s to try to stay under cap as long as possible. Is this viable or should I just wait for Panther. The III’s I think will eventually be King Tigers.

[captainjack]

The Panzer 3 is probably starting to get bit iffy but the 3N is good for soft targets with SA9. Between scenarios you can swap between the 3M for fighting tanks and the 3N for anti-infantry work for free one way and for about 24 prestige the other. It's quite an expensive upgrade to a 4G but if you have plenty of prestige you could afford it and you would get better performance and a tank that can be upgraded to the 4H. The best time to do this prestige-wise is if it gets taken to 10 or less, as you won't lose overstrength for out of series upgrade. When prestige is a bit tight, they can be worth upgrading to a 4J until teh King Tiger is available. It's- not as good as the panther, but not a huge amount worse either, and you can afford an extra point of upgrade or emergency elite replace.

Maybe give one your T34s a run to see if they are lucky. If not, it's no big deal, if you get a good hero or 3*, then it can sit in reserve until it can be upgraded to one of the cats and you can try out another one - probably best to limit this to one tank a scenario but it can pay off.

[Buffalohump]

Can any one tell me the difference organizationally between a Panzer Division and a Panzer Grenadier Division. I am at Oboyan deploying and have two Panzer divisions deployed. Each division contains 2 Panzer battalions, 4 infantry battalions, three artillery battalions, 1 AA battalion, 1 recon battalion, 1 Pioneer battalion, and 1 AT battalion. Each also has an independent heavy Panzer battalion assigned. I am interested in forming a third division of Panzer grenadiers but the table of organization that I am able to find looks almost identical to a 1943-44 Panzer division.

[PeteMitchell]

Not sure this will answer your question but PzGren were originally infantry (then mechanized infantry) units (focused on) fighting tanks. I think in reality the PzGren had only 1 (light) tank battalion as well as also less inf and arty compared to an actual inf division, maybe also compare here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadier
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadierdivision

[Buffalohump]

Not sure this will answer your question but PzGren were originally infantry (then mechanized infantry) units (focused on) fighting tanks. I think in reality the PzGren had only 1 (light) tank battalion as well as also less inf and arty compared to an actual inf division, maybe also compare here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadier
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadierdivision

Thanks for the reply. My apparent problem was that I was looking at the table of organization for Grossdeutshland, only Panzer grenadier in name. I was looking for a more streamlined infantry division. I do not have enough deployment slots left for a full pre 1944 infantry division with three regiments of three battalions. This will help immensely in planning. Right now I am going to deploy 6 infantry battalions, 2 light and 1 heavy artillery battalions, 1 AA , 1 heavy AT, 1 recon, and 1 Flamm/Engineer battalions. This should leave me with enough slots to deploy some Corp level assets to support my advance. Right now I am deploying 1 Panzer division to west o defend against tank assault in briefing then will move west and turn north. 1 Panzer division to east to advance strait north and then turn west. And finally the infantry division will assault right up middle between rivers to Oboyan.

[Buffalohump]

Update: Got home from work, found what should have been obvious. Just not enough deployment slots to field 3 full divisions and deploy a meaningful Air Force. I am going to have to settle for a couple of full divisions and 1 to 2 Kampfgruppe.

[shawkhan2]

Getting around the slot limitations, some people like to count infantry as regiments and everything else as battalions.