Us Pacific Campaign Where are the carriers?

stuka75 · Post by **stuka75** » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:07 pm

Just played the Coral sea scenario( defense of port moresby) and only had one carrier even though the briefing discussed carriers. OF course I only had one carrier air wing also. The force menu never showed a second carrier even though went through all 30 days.

CoolDTA · Post by **CoolDTA** » Sun Jul 29, 2018 4:59 pm

You are provided with one free carrier (CV Lexington), but the rest you must buy. You probably already have one you bought in the previous scenario so just purchase another one (+ the air wings).

bru888 · Post by **bru888** » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:14 pm

Cool, DTA! You saved me some head-scratching as well. I did not think of that possibility.

It boils down to a bit of miscommunication in objectives and messages. First, there is a campaign variable that says if you sustained any damage in the Marshals-Gilberts Raid, your one assigned auxiliary carrier will be delayed:

: Screenshot 3.jpg (222.97 KiB) Viewed 3314 times

It arrives in turn 5:

: Screenshot 4.jpg (236.92 KiB) Viewed 3314 times

Of course, if you had no carrier damage in the Marshals-Gilberts Raid, these triggers are not activated by that campaign variable. Then you get the aux carrier from the beginning. Either way, if you buy no other carriers, you only will have the one carrier throughout. But two things are misleading in that case: The highlighted message shown above and the objective itself which talks about "Keep at least 1 carrier alive" which is technically correct but implies that you have more than one to lose.

: Screenshot 1.jpg (254.08 KiB) Viewed 3314 times

So the scenario design is working but the messages could be a bit clearer.

bru888 · Post by **bru888** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:11 am

So, it was bothering me. I'll tell you why in the next post.

First, let's establish that the mechanism described above does indeed work. I nuked through to the M-G Raid and allowed my carrier to take damage, as confirmed here:

: Screenshot 1.jpg (369.69 KiB) Viewed 3273 times

When I started Coral Sea, the Lexington was indeed delayed:

: Screenshot 3.jpg (327.21 KiB) Viewed 3273 times

Fortunately, on turn 5, it turned up right on schedule!

: Screenshot 4.jpg (330.16 KiB) Viewed 3273 times

bru888 · Post by **bru888** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:14 am

Here is what is bothering me, something I noticed when I first answered in this thread:

: Screenshot 6.jpg (221.5 KiB) Viewed 3272 times

Why aren't these trigger effects "Spawn Unit" instead of "Deploy Unit"? They work, as shown above, but why? These units were not in reserve to start the scenario.

This is something else that I need to learn about this game, apparently.

stuka75 · Post by **stuka75** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:07 am

Well, that was interesting. Never thought to look in the purchase section. I was able to keep Port Moresby and the carrier, albeit with only three points left!
Thanks

stuka75 · Post by **stuka75** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 am

Which brings up the next question. In the following Midway scenario, the Lexington is on the board with the other two carriers, but in the buy unit, there is another CV Lexington 42!

GabeKnight · Post by **GabeKnight** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:28 am

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:14 am Why aren't these trigger effects "Spawn Unit" instead of "Deploy Unit"? They work, as shown above, but why? These units were not in reserve to start the scenario.

Actually, Bruce, those units were initially on the map and you've answered your question with your very first post and "screenshot 3":

: (-> exit -> deploy); Screenshot 649.jpg (625.22 KiB) Viewed 3256 times

CoolDTA · Post by **CoolDTA** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:14 am

stuka75 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 am Which brings up the next question. In the following Midway scenario, the Lexington is on the board with the other two carriers, but in the buy unit, there is another CV Lexington 42!

That's because you actually buy a ship of that class, not a specific ship. If you like, you can rename it for example to Saratoga by selecting the unit and then clicking its name.

bru888 · Post by **bru888** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:24 pm

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:28 am Actually, Bruce, those units were initially on the map and you've answered your question with your very first post and "screenshot 3":

Not exactly; at least not in my understanding. True, those units are removed in the beginning but they are marked to "Exit," not "Undeploy." I have thought of "Exit" as being final, no longer part of the scenario, while "Undeploy" would put the units in reserve. "Undeploy" is what I would use if I wanted to deploy them later again. Instead, this scenario exits these units and deploys them again which is what is confusing me. Maybe Exit/Deploy work differently for auxiliary units?

stuka75 · Post by **stuka75** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:37 pm

CoolDTA wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:14 am
stuka75 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:23 am Which brings up the next question. In the following Midway scenario, the Lexington is on the board with the other two carriers, but in the buy unit, there is another CV Lexington 42!
That's because you actually buy a ship of that class, not a specific ship. If you like, you can rename it for example to Saratoga by selecting the unit and then clicking its name.

Again, thanks. Makes more sense to me to label available carriers/ships as un named class type and avoid confusing old farts like me.

GabeKnight · Post by **GabeKnight** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:14 am

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:24 pm Not exactly; at least not in my understanding. True, those units are removed in the beginning but they are marked to "Exit," not "Undeploy." I have thought of "Exit" as being final, no longer part of the scenario, while "Undeploy" would put the units in reserve. "Undeploy" is what I would use if I wanted to deploy them later again. Instead, this scenario exits these units and deploys them again which is what is confusing me. Maybe Exit/Deploy work differently for auxiliary units?

Got it, you're confused with the wording. As I don't design scenarios, I don't use and know this trigger very well, but from my understanding of the game's mechanics so far, I'd venture a guess that all of the "remove how?" options (exept "kill") do place the units into some kind of "reserve" pool from which redeployment is possible. But it's just speculation.

steevodeevo · Post by **steevodeevo** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:23 am

A little confused here (nothing unusual

) does this discussion relate to Erik's 'US Naval Campaign (1941-46)' ?

cheers.

GabeKnight · Post by **GabeKnight** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:23 am

steevodeevo wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:23 am A little confused here (nothing unusual ) does this discussion relate to Erik's 'US Naval Campaign (1941-46)' ?

cheers.

It's about the vanilla Pacific DLC

bru888 · Post by **bru888** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:17 pm

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:14 am
bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:24 pm Not exactly; at least not in my understanding. True, those units are removed in the beginning but they are marked to "Exit," not "Undeploy." I have thought of "Exit" as being final, no longer part of the scenario, while "Undeploy" would put the units in reserve. "Undeploy" is what I would use if I wanted to deploy them later again. Instead, this scenario exits these units and deploys them again which is what is confusing me. Maybe Exit/Deploy work differently for auxiliary units?
Got it, you're confused with the wording. As I don't design scenarios, I don't use and know this trigger very well, but from my understanding of the game's mechanics so far, I'd venture a guess that all of the "remove how?" options (exept "kill") do place the units into some kind of "reserve" pool from which redeployment is possible. But it's just speculation.

Good speculation and yet something else that is useful to know. I've been using "Undeploy" with core units and it works as expected by putting units in reserve but "Exit" meant gone for good. Apparently that is not so with auxiliary units.

CoolDTA · Post by **CoolDTA** » Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:17 pm

What Gabe says sounds logical, but why make three possibilities to remove units if all have the exact same effect? Okay, maybe just for fun.

Anyway, look for example the Crusader scenario in Sandstorm. There are 3 IT bunkers and a radar station near the NW corner on the map. If you have not taken Tobruk in the first scen, they will be removed by "remove". If you have taken Tobruk, they will be removed by "exit" and then redeployed around Tobruk area. Then for instance there are couple of Beaufighters which are removed with the usual "undeploy" and deployed later if certain condition is fulfilled. So it seems exit and undeploy put units in reserve while remove and kill do not.

Now, if I were to design scenarios this would annoy me because there must be something hidden here (why extra buttons to do the same thing). But I don't and while Gabe knows something of these things and Bru much more than that, I know pretty much nothing. Which is actually when I'm most inclined to give food for thought.

GabeKnight · Post by **GabeKnight** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:43 pm

My "guess" based on very similar observations as yours, CoolDTA. While looking through some of the vanilla scens with the editor I remember noticing the same thing: one time they've used "undeploy", then "exit" and it seemed not to matter for the "redeploy" of units. But perhaps there are some nuances when used in combination with other effects or AI-team settings

Didn't terminator note somewhere that the "remove" trigger only works on turn start? There may be more to this...

But conclusively I'd suggest to not waste any more of our time on this, unless there's serious trouble with that trigger...

CoolDTA · Post by **CoolDTA** » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:51 pm

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:43 pm But conclusively I'd suggest to not waste any more of our time on this, unless there's serious trouble with that trigger...

Definitely agree with that.

Us Pacific Campaign Where are the carriers?

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