Obstacles on open ground next to enclosures

[Nijis]

So I'm fighting in the Romans vs Sassanids tournament battle, and there's a big patch of enclosures in the middle - desert palm gardens. That's fine.

The tile next to every enclosure, however, is designated an obstacle. This includes other enclosures plus open tiles with no visible terrain. The obstacles appear to grant massive defensive benefits - Legio Comitatenses fight at a disadvantage against Levy Foot.

Is this working as designed?

Screen_00000003.jpg (932.72 KiB) Viewed 2111 times

[rbodleyscott]

Yes, the obstacles are the irrigation ditches, which are the same from either side, so the benefit goes to whichever side is not attacking, whatever the terrain on each side of the obstacle..

The massive benefit is +25 POA

If the Legio Comitatensis attack, at impact the odds will be even, because the Legio will be on 100 POA for Light Spear, while the Levy will be on 100 POA for Defensive Spears + 25 for the ditch, - 25 for being Raw.

Then, if the Legio Comitatenses fail to disrupt the Levy Spears at impact (which is unlikely on even POAs), then they will be at a disadvantage, because the Levy Spears will be on 100 POA for Spears + 25 POA for the ditch -25 POA for being Raw. The Legio will be on 50 POA for Swordsmen vs steady spears, so on a net -50 POA.

[Nijis]

Ah, okay. In that case, though, why not start the "obstacle" terrain in the enclosures, where it would be visible, rather than extend it one tile outward? The defenders receive the benefit if the attacker is coming from non-obstacle terrain, so they would still have the advantage on enclosed fields.

In addition to significant defensive terrain being invisible, you also get some very odd effects - like enclosed fields in a depression on another map, so that the downward slope is an irrigation-ditch obstacle that, if attacked from the plateau, grants irrigation-ditch defensive benefits to someone fighting on the hillside.

[SnuggleBunnies]

It is not extended one tile outward. If you are fighting alongside the obstacle, but not across it, it has no effect.

[Nijis]

In the screenshot, the levy foot is adjacent to an enclosure, and is receiving the obstacle benefit against a legio, two tiles away. Neither of the units are on a tile that looks like anything other than open ground.

Consistently, on that map and other maps, all tiles that border on enclosure/obstacle have the obstacle tag.

So, imagine a setup like this:

Enclosure/Obstacle | Upward slope (still an obstacle) | Plateau
No unit ------------ | Defender ------------------------- | Attacker

Again, the defender would receive the irrigation ditch benefit, even though the closest ditch (from what the map suggests) is at the rear of the defender, not the front facing the attacker.

I understand that the game has "hidden" terrain that you need to check (ie, streams), but this seems to be very counterintuitive terrain.

[Paul59]

If I am looking at the right screenshot, and the right Levy foot, I would say that it should not be getting any defensive bonus!

The defensive bonus is only awarded if the defending unit is attacked across a ditch square side. There is no ditch between the Levy foot and the Legion, so there should be no defensive bonus! The fact that the tooltip says "Obstacle" does not mean that the defensive bonus is awarded for all attacks into the square.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Read the tooltips. The levy spears are in a tile labeled obstacle, due to the ditch adjacent to them to the north. However, the combat is not across the ditch so no change to their poa is involved.

The obstacle tag is just that, a tag. It does not indicate that a unit fighting in that tile receives the bonus, UNLESS an enemy attacks it from ACROSS the ditch.

[Nijis]

I'm pretty sure the levy infantry does receive the defensive bonus (full strength Legio with slightlt superior morale and armor is roughly 8/72/20 in close combat against it) but will need to double-check tomorrow when my opponent does the turn. Apologies in advance if I'm wrong.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Richard explained clearly in his post above that the legio would be at -50 poa in the melee had they attacked across the ditch. Here, without the ditch, they'd be at -25, so 8/72/20 sounds about right. But if the obstacle is in fact influencing the melee, it would certainly be a bug.

[rbodleyscott]

As Snugglebunnies says, the Obstacle tag on the tile tooltip just means that the square has an obstacle on at least one of its edges. It does not mean that all attacks into the square count the obstacle. It's just a heads up to look for an obstacle.

Obstacles affect square sides, not squares. The obstacles are visible (the ditches) and only attacks across a ditch count the obstacle. "Across" the ditch would be from any square on the far side of an imaginary line infinitely extending the obstacle square-side.

As the detailed tooltip will confirm when you look at the game again. I had forgotten the armour advantage, but even with a net POA of only +13 to the Spearmen, the odds are similar to what you report.

No Ditch Effect.jpg (246.08 KiB) Viewed 2001 times

"Enclosed" terrain does affect the whole square. It affects mounted movement speeds, and would stop any combat into or out of such a square counting as in "open terrain" even if it is not across a ditch square side. But it does not grant any POAs, nor protect the flank of infantry unless across a ditch square side.

[Nijis]

Ah! I underestimated the effect of those Defensive Spears. In my defense, an irregular infantry catty-cornered from the levies did (appropriately) receive the benefit, but still, oops.

(Gilda Radner voice)
Never mind.

Sorry about that, and thanks for the lengthy explanations.