Manzikert

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:01 am

Does anybody have a good link for info on the order of battle for the opposing sides at Manzikert

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:46 am

IIRC there isn't one - it is nearly wholly speculative

I think the current estimates are something like 15-20000 Turks and 40000 Byzantines. As Alp Arslan had come back from further east to meet Romanos his force is likely to have been mainly his "regulars" so a lot of ghilman types perhaps. The Byzantine army included some Turks IIRC.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:25 am

Didn't the majority of Turks desert before the battle?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:15 am

The ones on the Byzantines side?

I think some did and some didn't.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:50 am

So if I run this battle I can just make it up providing there is: a small BG of Varangian Guard, the Clibanophoroi are in the pooh, the Byzantines don't get much LH and the Seljuks have lots of Ghilmen.

Works for me. Minimal research

jcmedhurst · Post by **jcmedhurst** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:54 am

This looks quite good

http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/a ... arkham.htm

Certainly goes into some detail about what contingents were/were not present, it was a big army to start with, the Byzantines 'once-in-a-decade' army that could be used to tour the border impressing and intimidating the local princelings. The Comneni do this all the time, including against the northern Crusader states. Funny how Raymond of Tripoli starts to remember his oath of fealty when 100,000 heavily armed Byzantines come over the hill

ars_belli · Post by **ars_belli** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:04 pm

This 2004 article from Medieval History Magazine may be of some help as well: http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/mhm1.pdf

Cheers,
Scott

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:58 pm

the Clibanophoroi are in the pooh

No katafraktoi at Manzikert I would suggest. (assuming that is who you mean by clibanophoroi ...)

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:01 pm

Oooh. I thought Manzikert was the last run out for the Byzantine SHC L B D Sh guys

PaulByzan · Post by **PaulByzan** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:59 am

nikgaukroger wrote:IIRC there isn't one - it is nearly wholly speculative

I think the current estimates are something like 15-20000 Turks and 40000 Byzantines. As Alp Arslan had come back from further east to meet Romanos his force is likely to have been mainly his "regulars" so a lot of ghilman types perhaps. The Byzantine army included some Turks IIRC.

In all likelihood, for the final battle, both sides had roughly even strength, probably around 20,000 to 25,000 effectives. The De Re Militaria military analysis seems to support this. Rhomanus had made the classic error of splitting his forces in the face of the enemy (although it is likely he was unaware that he faced the Sultan's main army until he had split his army.) Also if the article is right and Tarachoneites had the Tagmata regiments with his force, then Rhomanus didn't even have his best cavalry available for the battle. Had Rhomanus kept his army together, inlcuding his heavy infantry as support for the cavalry, it is difficult to see how the Byzantines would have been defeated as they would have had numbers, a solid line of foot that the Seljuqs couldn't have breached and his best cavalry ready for countermoves. Given this, there probably wouldn't have even been a battle as Alp Arslan would never have fought under such unfavorable circumstances. I have a translated copy of Attaliates version of the battle. Haven't really gone through it carefully. I'll try to do so for more comments.

Paul Georgian

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:42 am

Haldon's Byzantine Wars is a decent reference if you're looking to build a scenario. There were several parts to the battle over a couple of days, and it could be more of a mini-campaign than a set piece battle.

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:47 pm

A quick related question.

Who was the Byzantine general who died when he rode into a tree around this time ?

Lorenz · Post by **Lorenz** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:38 pm

IIRC his name was Pakourianos

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:29 pm

Pakourianos the Blind or Pakourianos the Unlucky?

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:04 pm

The blind. After all he couldn't see the wood for the trees.

myrm · Post by **myrm** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:08 pm

He ended up with cross knights and oak leaves?

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:44 pm

Seems he hit the tree so hard he knocked enough wood off to make the coffin.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:22 pm

At least he died with a woodie

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:26 am

So its true, it does make you blind then ?