Just sharing: why I haven't played one of my favourite games for months...

[steevodeevo]

Hi folks,

OoB is close to one of my all time favourite games. Over the last several months I have had some free time and don't really have a huge desire to play any other particular game, but every time my mouse hovers over the OoB launch button, I hesitate. This has been going on for several months and I thought I would share my 'reasons' with you, despite them being completely barmy , but I'm interested in your thoughts.

When I first started playing OoB several years ago, I played at level 2 (lieutenant). It seemed a reasonable place to start as a relatively new player but familiar with the genre. level 2 difficulty level provided me with a decent challenge and was satisfying as I was able to complete the scenarios, but not always the first time around. Over time, reading the forums and seeing how others play, playing the game more, it became obvious to me that the optimal challenge and where the game is balanced, is at level 3 (Major) difficulty level. It also seems fairer and more realistic as the AI and the player both have 10 units in a Division.

However since I switched to this difficulty level (3) I have really struggled. To an extent I have also lost a lot of the fun which has been replaced by frustration and despondency - not a good mindset to launch a game session. I have found myself reaching a dead end mid way (or sometimes sooner if I'm honest) in campaigns as I have struggled through the early rounds, not generated enough funds to increase or upgrade my army, lost too many units, started successive scenarios with weakened units and eventually it grinds to a halt.

I am sure I am not a bad player. I have played these types of tactical games for decades and have played a fair amount of classic Operational and Strategic level war games as well with some success. I can be very successful in OoB at level 2. I have completed all of the campaigns prior to Panzerkreig (which was the point I increased to level 3), and I have backtracked to these earlier campaigns that I have won convincingly to try to re-train myself at the new challenge level and I now lose those campaigns as well!

I do not wish to revert to level 2, it doesn't feel right and I won;t be satisfied. I have also read regularly players completing campaigns, not without difficulty, at level 5 (field-marshal), so clearly difficulty levels 3 is possible to win, as is 4 and 5. I have beta tested campaigns in OoB, I fully understand all of the game mechanics, I understand flanking, supply and combined forces from a wide range of games..

In the end I am left,as I say, frustrated and despondent. One of my favourite games has turned against me and I just can't bring myself to play it.

[bru888]

steevo, this is going to seem like a glib response but it's not intended that way: Why don't you just set the difficulty level back to 2 and forget it?

Here are some thoughts:
1) Level 2 is the default setting. Maybe it's set there by the developers for a reason, instead of in the middle at level 3?
2) I happen to prefer level 3 myself but I don't bother with such thoughts as why people play at levels 4 and 5; that is their preference. I have fun on level 3.
3) You should realize that the only difference between the levels is where default enemy strengths are set: level 1 = 6; level 2 = 8; level 3 = 10; level 4 = 12; and level 5 = 13 (not 14 if memory serves - don't know why). Other than this, difficulty level has no effect on how the game plays or the AI thinks, if I am not mistaken.
4) Ultimately, and I'm saying this in a good way, other than yourself who cares what level you play on? Right. Nobody. So, why compare yourself to others in this regard?

My recommendation, then, is to go back to playing OOB in the manner in which you enjoyed it most. It's a game and it's supposed to be fun so stop worrying about the difficulty level and play it your way.

By the way, you mentioned some game mechanics but you left out unit efficiency. I was having trouble with level 3 before I fully grasped that concept and began playing accordingly.

[Andy2012]

@steevodeevo: Just a quick one, but the game has a new autosave function now that saves after each turn individually. Allows you to go back a few turns and correct mistakes. Together with the quicksave function (F5) a real lifesaver. I used this tactic before the devs automated it and it reduces frustration massively. Let's face it, this can be difficult, but that's why we love it.

[Edgewalker]

1. Well, I noticed that when you play carefully and conserve your experienced units, game gets easier as you progress, even though missions get harder. I struggled really hard in first scenarios but I finished the campaign quite easily while still playing at the same difficulty level.
2. Just come and play PBEM, you never now the difficulty level of your opponent ^^ Seriously, I know some people that can exploit AI at difficulty 5 easily but aren't too good in multi and vice-versa. There are folks who can't complete easy sp campaign but catch the right flow at multi and get very successful.

[cutydt02]

panzerkrieg has problem, it seem more difficult and less fun. How the hell we can have fun with 15 empty lps with more than 100 cps at 3th map ?

[koopanique]

Ah! I've got the same problem...

Or rather, as long as the campaign is going well, I have no problem launching the game -- but as soon as I start losing, as soon as I suffer major setbacks, I get very moody (IRL) and I find it harder to launch the game again... strategy games either makes me very happy or very sad/frustrated.

But I find that in OoB, a dire situation is rarely fatal. Even when all of your units seem in a very bad spot, you never really now when the game is going to suddenly give you some additional RPs, and also, AI attacks rarely last very long. The tables can often be turned even with a weak army. But you can only find out if you keep playing a bit more.

Maybe this will help you: like you I played at level 2 at first, then at level 3; I had to restart scenarios a couple of time, but I also don't hesitate to tell myself that I'll just use cheat codes if I run out of turns. This helps me keep playing even when I'm apparently losing, and actually I often end up winning the scenario.

Good luck in your next battles!

[uran21]

I do not think the difference between 3rd and 5th level of difficulty is significant enough to warrant balanced experience for two type of players every on their own level. If the game is balanced to satisfy hardcore challengers seeking a hard fight for every inch of the ground on the 5th level this will reflect negatively on the 3rd level. If the game is balanced to satisfy people wanting more of immersion and progression with decent challenges that don't require deep study of every move it will negatively reflect on the 5th level.

Resource management is a separate story because it is not even taken into consideration when defining difficulty. The problem of resources is it works on a positive feedback loop if one does it right from start one can swim in resources later because success breeds success. If one does it wrong one will have less chance of success later on because one will not even have enough to field a full army.

Also, I do think DEFAULT difficulty level should be the one where enemy units are of equal strength as players. Some people don’t even increase difficulty above Normal 3rd level because of this.

Part of the problem comes because balancing is often done on gut feeling and designers are obviously biased when it comes to that due to their own experience with the game and scenarios they are making. What would help is to have some zero reference point for default level aimed for people who care more about progression than anything else. The hardest difficulty level would be adjusted accordingly to requirements of hardcore fan expectations not arbitrarily.

What would be your expectation regarding default level:

When it comes to purchases? Accessibility of all the best equipment or?

When it comes to replacements? Elite replacements all the time or?

When it comes to lost units? Is losing a unit even an option?

When it comes to winning? Victory at first try or occasional loss is ok?

When it comes to secondary objectives? Could one accept prohibitive secondary objectives even after several tries or checking all goes with a victory?

[tula1959]

I understand what steevo is saying here.... I too have hit the wall trying to play at Level 3 and have pretty much given up trying - Level 2 is where I am and where it looks like I will have to stay...
Somehow Level 2 feels like one is cheating to begin with, and even at that, in order to get through the majority of scenarios/campaigns I have to resort to even more cheats in order to prevail...
Sometimes just a few extra turns, but more often a combo of extra CP/RP AND turns... And again, this is on Level 2!!!!!!!!!! But the game is SO good and SO enjoyable I just keep playing!!!!

Now understand I am a veteran gamer, and have been playing strategy and tactics military simulations since the early 1970s, back in the days of table-top pre-computer - SPI/Avalon Hill etc..
I have been playing OOB now for 7-8months and have gotten to the point where my understanding of all the subtle aspects of the game are good - efficiency levels/making good use of AT and anti-air defense/the importance of artillery, etc. I like to think my strategy and tactics skills are pretty good at this point... but what I said above is STILL the case!!! In OOB it is still a mystery to me what magic tactics others must have to prevail on Level 3 or higher when faced (as is so often the case) with being outnumbered near 2-1 or more in units.... or being faced with far to little time to meet the objectives... If it were not for the cheats I would have been unable to proceed very far in any of the DLCs and would have given up long ago!!! But there IS a certain self-imposed stigma that goes along with being a "cheater"...never feel very good about doing it, but would rather do it and continue versus giving up and not playing any more!!!!!

[steevodeevo]

Maybe someone could record a difficulty level 3 game with victory and post it? Perhaps the method(s) for success at 3 and above is one of those things you have to actually see, go get the light bulb moment?

[Andy2012]

@all: I think Mojko has a walkthrough up in replay form. Just download, watch and learn. Also, there are a lot of walkthroughs on youtube (if you have the patience).
Steevodeevo, dont despair. We can help. I personally think OoB can be frustrating if you dont save a lot and make stupid mistakes early on. If you post detailed questions about missions and your core force, we can answer with more specific advice.

[GabeKnight]

Maybe someone could record a difficulty level 3 game with victory and post it? Perhaps the method(s) for success at 3 and above is one of those things you have to actually see, go get the light bulb moment?

Maybe do the opposite and post one of yours so we can analyze and criticize...
(...and help of course... )

[steevodeevo]

Maybe someone could record a difficulty level 3 game with victory and post it? Perhaps the method(s) for success at 3 and above is one of those things you have to actually see, go get the light bulb moment?

Maybe do the opposite and post one of yours so we can analyze and criticize...
(...and help of course... )

Is it not better to show someone the right way to do something than embarrass someone by posting the wrong way then taking it apart? Anyway, it's entirely optional, but I would hope someone who's doing a good job and doing it right would be ok or even proud to share.

I have started the entire game again from scratch. I have deleted all my saves and am going back to Blitzkrieg and attempting to apply what i've learned from playing and the useful tips I have picked up here. Plus of course, the game has been tuned-up and updated since I first played Blitz. I will report anything of interest...probably my ongoing misery and failure

[GabeKnight]

Is it not better to show someone the right way to do something than embarrass someone by posting the wrong way then taking it apart?

That depends on the individual. Some learn better on their own, some do better with "coaches"...

Anyway, it's entirely optional, but I would hope someone who's doing a good job and doing it right would be ok or even proud to share.

You can take the detailed AAR from NightPhoenix here: German Campaign AAR. He also does post some replays. And there are tons here on the forum if you search for "replay" and browse a bit through the results that have attachments.
(And the tactics used on level5 difficulty apply the same to level3)

[bebro]

Ppl who are struggling can change the difficulty before each scn in a cam, so could temporarily go up or down for any individual scn.

[steevodeevo]

Is it not better to show someone the right way to do something than embarrass someone by posting the wrong way then taking it apart?

That depends on the individual. Some learn better on their own, some do better with "coaches"...

Anyway, it's entirely optional, but I would hope someone who's doing a good job and doing it right would be ok or even proud to share.

You can take the detailed AAR from NightPhoenix here: German Campaign AAR. He also does post some replays. And there are tons here on the forum if you search for "replay" and browse a bit through the results that have attachments.
(And the tactics used on level5 difficulty apply the same to level3)

thanks Gabe.

[steevodeevo]

Ppl who are struggling can change the difficulty before each scn in a cam, so could temporarily go up or down for any individual scn.

Never!

[bebro]

Hehe

As a general point - in my experience it is easy to overextend and leave own units in vulnerable positions.

So when advancing/attacking it's worth to consider where it leaves you afterwards, and how exposed you are to the enemy when it's the AI's turn. You might have noticed the AI is keen to gang up on weaker units.

Knowing that leaves you with a number of opportunities to either:
- expose a aux unit instead of a core unit
- set up ambushes/AT/AA cover
- move/attack so the AI does not get so many favourable attack options (from multiple sides vs. one target) against your forward units

All of that is highly situational of course, so depending on scn you might not want to "spend" many aux units too fast, for example.

RP wise I'd highly recommend to go with a mix of elite and standard reinforcements to save some bucks.

[steevodeevo]

Hehe

As a general point - in my experience it is easy to overextend and leave own units in vulnerable positions.

So when advancing/attacking it's worth to consider where it leaves you afterwards, and how exposed you are to the enemy when it's the AI's turn. You might have noticed the AI is keen to gang up on weaker units.

Knowing that leaves you with a number of opportunities to either:
- expose a aux unit instead of a core unit
- set up ambushes/AT/AA cover
- move/attack so the AI does not get so many favourable attack options (from multiple sides vs. one target) against your forward units

All of that is highly situational of course, so depending on scn you might not want to "spend" many aux units too fast, for example.

RP wise I'd highly recommend to go with a mix of elite and standard reinforcements to save some bucks.

Yes, of late, since I restarted and tried to critique my game, I have realised that THIS is probably one of my main flaws. In Fall Gelb, which I have just restarted at difficulty level 3, I was doing OK then realised I was over extended, forces fragmented and I paid the price. I'm constantly aware of the clock in OoB and it tends to make one rush recklessly. That says, you have to be rapid as you usually do run out of time.

However (now his could just be the FG scenario, I have never understood the best routes an force balance for the x2 routes; Low Countries and Ardennes), but I did notice that I had probably more time than I was allowing myself. It was only just after half way when my forces were extended and began to get picked off that I started to lose momentum and the clock started to run down. It may be possible for me to slow the early advances, stay consolidated and make the time up later.

[CoolDTA]

Now that you know something about the disposition of the enemy units and when and where the AI might counterattack, you probably will do better. Imo the turn limits in OoB are quite forgiving and usually you don't gain anything by rushing things. To get some useful hints I strongly suggest you go and see Paradogs Gamer's videos (Fall Gelb here). He struggles with the lack of resource points and time limits, too, so you are watching a regular gamer like you or me overcoming obstacles. Master Senseis like Kondi, 13obo, Gabe etc. are another thing entirely.

[Andy2012]

Another thing (which isnt really fully positive for the game's balance): I feel like you dont need elite reinforcements a lot. Sometimes not at all. I struggled through my first playthrough in WinterWar, just did it again over the last few weeks. No elite reinforcements, no problem. Swimming in credits all the time, I could afford all the fancy aircraft and Stugs I craved and needed. So if you feel always short on cash, go for regular replacements.