Weird Results

[Cunningcairn]

What I find bizarre is the fact the skirmishers stood their ground and didn't try and retreat on open terrain. Did the unit of skirmishers get caught and disrupted or something? It would be a truly freakish result, but I suppose it is possible the skirmishers somehow stood their ground and passed every single cohesion test that came their way. The chances of that result seem astronomical though when paired against my own experience. Skirmishers caught by heavy infantry on the retreat frequently don't live out the initial impact, let alone turn after turn following that.

Exactly! It stood its ground in a frontal assault by the pike block and only dropped a cohesion level after 6 rounds. Admittedly it is a Cretan archer but nevertheless it is a skirmisher. I'll take a screenshot when it comes around to my turn again.

[Archaeologist1970]

In every ancients rules set I have ever played including homebrews, Armati, etc... a formed unit that contacts a skirmishers unit makes the skirmisher evaporate. I would love to hear the explanation this written into the code.

[SnuggleBunnies]

6 turns in melee pike vs skirms is something that I have never seen before. I think you simply got absurdly, cosmically unlucky. The patch has nothing to do with it, though.

[Ludendorf]

And you're absolutely sure the pike phalanx wasn't disrupted or severely depleted when they charged, Cunningcairn? The mystery for me is why they chose to stand in the first place... has anyone else ever seen Cretan archers stand their ground against a phalanx? This hasn't ever happened to me before; I've seen above average skirmishers choose to stand against raw spears, but never something as heavy or as dangerous as a phalanx.

Was it a raw phalanx, or a unit of regulars?

[SnuggleBunnies]

This sort of discussion makes me wish for a feature: Record Game. I feel that it can't be too difficult to code, even though it would not be backwards patch compatible, it would be useful.

Basically, we could look at Cunningcairn's game, analyze it, and say either, "Aha, here's the real explanation for these results," or "Yes that is weird... is there some kind of bug going on?"

As it is, we rely on people's memory of events, which is unreliable compared to a replay, and we rely on them to remember to take screenshots in the heat of the moment, which most of us do not regularly think to do.

Additionally, it would be an excellent tool for creating AAR, which are a great way to market the game.

[TheGrayMouser]

I’m going to go with the “subjective” phenomenon here. For example, the OP is not mentioning a certain light horse unit that survived an obscene # of turns aftert being hit in the flank and rear by armored auxilia and a medium archer ( both of which were uphill if I recall) .

I think it is impossible for a full strength pike to lose a cohesion test to 1 skirmished shot as you need 10% inflicted casualties to even trigger, so something else was going on.

Personally , I don’t like skirmishes holding ground as much as they do, although the rational ( likely hood of caught evading considered) is solid.

[Cunningcairn]

I understand your disbelief and you are correct that a replay game function would be great. The LF when I charged it had an avenue to escape which is now blocked in the screenshot. My Pike element to the right of the LF/Pike combat has pushed back the enemy pike in a subsequent round. What I don't remember is if the LF initially did try and flee and the got caught in the rear. However if this was the case then it should have immediately dropped a cohesion level on contact which it did not. Unfortunately I have just won the game so cannot fight another melee with the LF but you will notice the LF has a 0% chance of winning and a 2% chance of getting a draw and although I don't know the odds in each of the 6 rounds the pike always had a big advantage. Irrespective of whether I got super unlucky or not it does not make any sense that the LF should have been able to perform in this way. In this particular game my opponent lost more combats that were equal and I consider him unlucky in this game except for the Super LF. See image below.

https://imgur.com/a/OYmVl0N

[Cunningcairn]

I’m going to go with the “subjective” phenomenon here. For example, the OP is not mentioning a certain light horse unit that survived an obscene # of turns aftert being hit in the flank and rear by armored auxilia and a medium archer ( both of which were uphill if I recall) .

I think it is impossible for a full strength pike to lose a cohesion test to 1 skirmished shot as you need 10% inflicted casualties to even trigger, so something else was going on.

Personally , I don’t like skirmishes holding ground as much as they do, although the rational ( likely hood of caught evading considered) is solid.

I also think it is impossible to drop cohesion from a single LF shooting hence me calling it a weird result. This happened in numerous games playing against Persian armies with Ptolemaics. At first I just thought I was unlucky but there have been more and more weird things happening which cannot be interpreted as bad luck.

As for the LH you are referring to do you not think that is weird and totally impossible? There are very many weird results that I have not mentioned. My point is they are making me doubt what is going to happen when I make a move that appears to have no risk to me.

[Cunningcairn]

This sort of discussion makes me wish for a feature: Record Game. I feel that it can't be too difficult to code, even though it would not be backwards patch compatible, it would be useful.

Basically, we could look at Cunningham's game, analyze it, and say either, "Aha, here's the real explanation for these results," or "Yes that is weird... is there some kind of bug going on?"

As it is, we rely on people's memory of events, which is unreliable compared to a replay, and we rely on them to remember to take screenshots in the heat of the moment, which most of us do not regularly think to do.

Additionally, it would be an excellent tool for creating AAR, which are a great way to market the game.

This screen shot is from a game we are currently playing. Your cav is on Tracks and is Steady. My LF is in the open. I had a cavalry lancer which I have since retired 2 squares behind my LF so that it could evade your cavalry charge and bring your cav into the open. You charged and my LF stood and fought you and did not drop a cohesion level. It could have evaded through my cav but decided to fight a heavy cavalry unit in the open. That to me is weirdly bizarre!

https://imgur.com/a/2w4zXRH

[SnuggleBunnies]

It's not bizarre. My cavalry started its turn adjacent to the light javs. They did not evade because the AI calculates that it will be caught. Basically, light infantry charged by cavalry 1 tile away will never evade unless they are being flank attacked. That's nothing new.

[Ludendorf]

Yeah, foot skirmishers (almost) never evade horse that are right beside them. I think I've heard of it happening once or twice, but it's a 'blue moon' event if it does. If you charge adjacent skirmishers with cavalry, they are going to stand their ground. I think an exception might be if the skirmishers can duck behind heavy infantry who are directly behind them.

[Cunningcairn]

It's not bizarre. My cavalry started its turn adjacent to the light javs. They did not evade because the AI calculates that it will be caught. Basically, light infantry charged by cavalry 1 tile away will never evade unless they are being flank attacked. That's nothing new.

Of course it's bizarre how can you justify a LF element being charged in the open surviving the charge without dropping in morale? That's mighty fine drugs they are on.

[Cunningcairn]

Yeah, foot skirmishers (almost) never evade horse that are right beside them. I think I've heard of it happening once or twice, but it's a 'blue moon' event if it does. If you charge adjacent skirmishers with cavalry, they are going to stand their ground. I think an exception might be if the skirmishers can duck behind heavy infantry who are directly behind them.

In this instance my cavalry was probably too far away for the LF to evade through but they should not come out of the charge unscathed.

[SnuggleBunnies]

Well usually they lose badly and drop cohesion. But I suppose an argument could be made that lights charged by non lights should automatically drop cohesion. That might require changes to unit pricing though.

[76mm]

Have you used any pike armies since the new release?

Nope

[76mm]

I am also experiencing a very high percentage of double cohesion drops on steady troops when charged.

I've suffered from this from Day 1, especially with pike armies.

[Cunningcairn]

Well usually they lose badly and drop cohesion. But I suppose an argument could be made that lights charged by non lights should automatically drop cohesion. That might require changes to unit pricing though.

Yes I think that would be a good change. I thank you all for your participation in this discussion.

[76mm]

..,has anyone else ever seen Cretan archers stand their ground against a phalanx? This hasn't ever happened to me before; I've seen above average skirmishers choose to stand against raw spears, but never something as heavy or as dangerous as a phalanx.

In my experience it is not especially uncommon for skirmishers to stand their ground against a phalanx, although I can't say I've seen one last for more than 3 turns, or maybe at the very most 4.

[Cunningcairn]

I am also experiencing a very high percentage of double cohesion drops on steady troops when charged.

I've suffered from this from Day 1, especially with pike armies.

OK interesting! It is a new phenomena for me. What also is new for me is that I appear to immediately drop morale when I'm charged in a flank when in frontal combat while I'm in a BUA. I have been charged by the element I am facing frontally and have not charged out of the BUA in these cases. Occupied BUA's used to give me great flank protection but this is no longer the case and in many instances they are quickly routed by troops with no combat advantage over the troops defending the BUA.

[Cunningcairn]

..,has anyone else ever seen Cretan archers stand their ground against a phalanx? This hasn't ever happened to me before; I've seen above average skirmishers choose to stand against raw spears, but never something as heavy or as dangerous as a phalanx.

In my experience it is not especially uncommon for skirmishers to stand their ground against a phalanx, although I can't say I've seen one last for more than 3 turns, or maybe at the very most 4.

Again this is not something I experienced previously but I suppose it could be put down to a change in the way players are now using them.