Ancient Eastern Horse Archer Armies

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:57 pm

One army type I'm missing is a horse archer army. I like to get figures I can use for a variety of armies so I want to build a morphable horse archer army, mainly covering "Immortal Fire" armies but also some of the other books. I figure I'll start with Graeco-Bactrian as I have the Greek cavalry and phalanx already from my Macedonian / successor armies. I know you wouldn't necessarily describe this as a horse archer army but it can have up to 24 bases so it's a start. So I'd need to buy some Bactrian horse archers and heavy cavalry (Iranian lancers - either cataphracts or armoured cavalry). I have some Skythians already so they would do as the Saka.
I could then add more Skythians and some infantry for Saka / Skythian. Next would be more heavy cavalry and infantry for Early / Late Archaemenid Persian.
My questions are :
How much difference would there be between the different horse archers - Bactrian, Skythian / Saka and the other horse archers in the Persian lists.
Would these also be OK for some of the later horse archers such as Parthian, Armenian & Palmyran.
Would the same cataphract figures be usable for all of these armies ?
What figures manufacturers would you recommend for these armies ?
Any online painting guides / background information or just pictures of painted figures for inspiration ?
Any help will be much appreciated.

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:56 am

Note that the Bactrians are double-armed, with bow and Light Spear, while most of the period horse archers are bow & swordsmen.

For dress the Skythian style soft hat was shared by many during the I.F. period--Getic Thracians, Saka, Skythians of course--though watch out for the 'bowcase police' (and Nik!)
Parthians are often illustrated with headbands but seem to have worn some of these style hats as well.

They are covered by many manufacturers, the main problem is one of scale: for 15mm Xyston--beautiful, but more expensive and a bit larger, Old Glory, middle-sized and the most economic, and "true" 15's from Essex, Donnington, Museum and a number of others tend to run in middle price ranges.

Painting guides--I suggest stopping by a library or bookstore well stocked with Osprey titles, if you can, and looking through the various armies. You'll find some illustrations online, but there is a real variety here that you won't find except in books (I'll be happy to have someone contradict me.) Armies of the Greek and Macedonian Wars has a reasonably good overview of the period with line drawings, but I don't know of any one source that will compare and contrast the different types of light horse in all their variety.

For painted figures, see http://menix-miniatures.blogspot.com/20 ... cator.html
http://miniatureminions.blogspot.com/20 ... -army.html
http://www.xyston.com/site_a/html/gallery.htm

This is just a start--

bobm · Post by **bobm** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 1:25 pm

Scythians, Saka and Parthian will tend towards a similar mode of dress. Crossover top, trousers (some looser others skin tight) boots and either headband or hood type cap. In 15mm they're pretty interchangeable. The sources indicate lots of spears and shields amongst the Scythians and Greek style helmets and armour. Maybe these were restricted to nobility. Not seen many figures with shields though. Look out for books by Gorelik....and try this website
http://steppes.proboards23.com/index.cgi
Bactrians with light spear and bow are referred to pre Alexander and most figures show the Persian Tiarra head-dress. Whether these carried on looking (and armed) the same afterward is unknown (you will note that the list doesn't include the similarly armed foot). The armoured Iranian cavalry are based on a coin showing a figure in loose trousers, Greek body armour and bareheaded with a spear and bowcase. The Cataphracts are I think an assumption based on their useage by all their neighbours....so you can use figure ranges for their neighbours...and then use them as their neighbours.

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:19 pm

To the design team folks: In the Graeco-Bactrian list, the Iranian Lancers don't have a bow. Why was this changed from lists in earlier rules & the illustration in Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars and what figures would now be appropriate? (I'm mostly interested in the latter

)

Thanks!

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:08 pm

MarkSieber wrote:To the design team folks: In the Graeco-Bactrian list, the Iranian Lancers don't have a bow. Why was this changed from lists in earlier rules & the illustration in Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars and what figures would now be appropriate? (I'm mostly interested in the latter )

Thanks!

Troops armed with lance and bow can be classified as either lance/sword, bow/sword or lance/bow*/sword. The exact combination is selected to reflect the actual battlefield behaviour of the troops in question. Obviously in the opinion of the list team Iranina lancers were primarily shock troops and made little use of the bow in battle.

MarkSieber · Post by **MarkSieber** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:32 pm

Thanks, Hammy--that's very clear! No need to redo figures. How would a lancer have time to shoot while trying to pass a CMT not to charge?

walker75le · Post by **walker75le** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:35 am

Hi, If you want any inspiration of where to go re collecting an 'all singing all dancing Horse archer army' then look no further than this web page;

http://menix-miniatures.blogspot.com/se ... Miniatures

Re suggested figures to use, Essex miniatures for me still produce the best range of quality 15's where you can add Parthian, Scythian, Persian, Armenian, Hun, Avar HA types together. They all have that 'together' look. Their Horses are generally well sculpted, are the same overall size and many of their HA figures come in multi-poses. Add in some other true 15's figures from Donnington and the like and you have an HA army with real variety, which is what you really will want. There is nothing worse than seeing a nice HA army, where all the figures and horses are in the same pose.

Don't be put off by some of the older Essex Cataphracts (Palmyran/Late Roman). There are many others available throughout their 'Ancients' 15mm range. Donnington’s Cataphracts/Clibs are also very good and they do great command groups. I personally use all Essex Cataphract Horses (They come in a variety of poses and Essex will supply them separately if you ask them nicely) with a mix of Essex and Donnington as the riders.

Main imperative is to be flexible in your choice of figures with the ranges you buy from and be prepared to have the 'odd' figures consigned to the 'parts bin' .

Happy army building

Custor · Post by **Custor** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:11 am

Walker (Edit: Menic) Lovely figs. I thought I was looking at 25s until I saw your 25s. Quite stunning.

Menic · Post by **Menic** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:40 pm

Ay Slitherines
'Tis not Walker's army
'Tis my army, my paint job and my blog.

Anyway, thanks for your interest and kind words. This is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading along some time. I only play DBA but who knows what the future will bring...

greetz

menic

http://menix-miniatures.blogspot.com/

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:54 pm

They are some of the best 15mm ancients I have seen. Very impressive.

frederic · Post by **frederic** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:01 pm

Hi Menic,
Your painting jobs on Parthian 15mm is impressive.
I've added a link to it on my parthian page : http://www.miniatures4wargamers.com/dat ... rthian.php.
Feel free to submit me more painted armies (even DBA size).
Fred

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:28 pm

I agree with Hammy (just this once). I actually have the Essex 15mm Parthians and looking at mine against these makes me ashamed of mine. These are true works of art, and I never thought I would see that level of detail on a 15mm, cripes I would be happy if my 28mm Swiss looked half as good as that.

I am absolutely green with envy. If ever I win the lottery, I am on the next flight to Bern (somewhere I still remember from my only visit in 1975) with my cheque book and as many figures as Menic will paint for me...

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:03 pm

Menic wrote:Ay Slitherines
'Tis not Walker's army
'Tis my army, my paint job and my blog.

Anyway, thanks for your interest and kind words. This is my first post on this forum, but I've been reading along some time. I only play DBA but who knows what the future will bring...

greetz

menic

http://menix-miniatures.blogspot.com/

Very impressive! I've never seen that level of detail on 15mm's before.

Oh yes, and your avatar fairly screams furor helveticus

walker75le · Post by **walker75le** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:55 pm

Hi Menic,
Sorry if Custer's post inadvertantly caused you any upset or confusion re the artist behind this work. I posted the short cut re your 15mm Army as an inspiration to others regarding what can be achieved 1. with a Horse archer army and 2. with Essex 15mm figures. I know that your work has inspired me after a lenghty period of not painting my own 15's

The advent of FOG has rekindled my own interest and many others in 15mm Ancients again . I have mainly large DBM size armies of 'Essex Miniatures 15mm' covering Rome and all her enemies from around the 3rd and 4th C AD. (Once I finish the Bosporans I will only has Blemye left to do then and I will have the lot.) I have been collecting these armies since 1994. I thought that my armies were very well painted until I say yours. I have spent most of the New Year adding more detail to my own Late Romans and Sassanids armies. Still some way to go ( in fact a very long way) to achieve your high standards but I am determined to get there.

One matter that impressed me the most in your work was the complete absence of 'flash/cast lines' on the Parthian models displayed. How many collectors waste beautifully painted figures by not cleaning the original casting properly in the first place. This is a pet hate of mine.

Anyways good luck increasing your army to the larger FOG scales. This should keep you busy during the long winter nights in Switzerland.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:13 pm

Menic, truly awesome (Inspired?) Parthian general. And who knows maybe FoG will do something smaller so these can grace the table in a "proper game".

madaxeman · Post by **madaxeman** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:03 am

There are lots of Parthian-type photos in the 15mm Ancients gallery on my site if you want to compare manufacturers. And on the Parthian army guide page I think it lists the suppliers too.

Remember we are talking steppe armies from 2000+ years ago here. There is no consensus on what Roman shields were painted with and steppe nomads were a lot worse than the Ronans at leaving detailed archeological records of their fashions in hats over a 2-300 year period. Go with nice figures that you like that look right to you would be my advice.

Tim

Menic · Post by **Menic** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:58 am

@Walker: absolutely no offense taken! My next army will be some galatians. As you can see I'm focused on ancient Persia and surroundings when it comes to 15mm. All my 25mm is medieval-stuff, DBx based as well (that's allmot the same as FoG, right?

@frederic: thank you very much! Very useful this website of yours. I put a link to it on my log, too.

@madaxeman: their's a link to your website now as well! Looking at Marco Betti's Sassanids from AB-Miniatures made me all jumpy again. Yeeehaa!

@timmy: oh, I can tell, Berne is the same as it was in 1975: allmost nobody plays decent wargames here....so, since I can't game as much as I'd like too I paint instead. As for your lottery luck: I do comission work...

@philqw78: The parthian general is an original design. Inspiration? not sure, I was listening to a story about intelligent irish sheep (Audio-books). I think "Glennkill" was the title. So there you go....

@all: thanx!

G'day all, I gotta go back to the "Magnesia 190 BC" thread.......*sigh*

Ancient Eastern Horse Archer Armies

Ancient Eastern Horse Archer Armies

Horse archer armies

Menic's Parthians