Terrain generation

[MikeC_81]

Is there any consideration with limiting the amount of severe terrain like massive difficult slopes and large swaths of forest and swamp in the central areas of the map or at least limiting the possibility of their size from blocking off huge sections of deployment zones or right in front of it? It is not a huge issue most of the time but there are some maps which are downright un-enjoyable to play. Currently in a map where 1/3 of the map is water, a long ridge with dominating difficult slope with elevation differences of over 100 units runs 1/4 of the map starting at the coast followed by a continuous forest stretching to the map edge the rest of the way.

There is literally a 3 square gap to move through and is situated on my opponent's half of the map which he easily beat me to. I have no choice but to be passive. Similary if he wants to get at me, he has to march down from the ridge and onto my high ground or go through the forest which is surrounded by high ground on my end.

Terrain is great but at some point it becomes excessive to the point where a commander would never do battle in such conditions.

[Lancier]

+1

[GiveWarAchance]

.

[MikeC_81]

For reference sake



This is a tournament game so for fairness to my opponent, please no one post "tips".

I tried to make an end run with my cavalry but it was really a fool's hope given that he had to be brain dead not to block off the path and now i am in the process of withdrawing my cavalry.

I have assaulted more than my fair share of bad terrain, even to the point of my detriment last round but this one takes the cake. It heavily incentives the player on both sides to dig in and not move.

[rbodleyscott]

The terrain generation algorithms do make terrain more likely to be on the edges of the map, but do not completely prevent them from being in the middle.

We take the view that the battlefield is not necessarily the whole map, but the part of the map where the fighting ultimately takes place. (The real world does not have special compartments neatly labelled "battlefield").

Also, some battles really were fought when one side ambushed the other from woods.

The game would be a lot less interesting if no map presented significant terrain issues to overcome.

[stockwellpete]

I think that battlefield is OK really. It is probably more likely to produce a draw than the more open battlefields you usually get, I agree. But at deployment, if was playing as the Maroon side, I might have put my C-in-C on top of the hill in the middle of the woods, deployed my foot in the forest on either side of him and maybe put my cavalry out on the open plain on the left. So basically you are inviting the enemy to a teddy bear's picnic. It would take that very steep hill out of play as well. Of course, the other player might have reasons for not wanting to enter the woods and that would lead to a draw. I don't have a problem with draws myself, but in the automated tournaments a low-scoring draw is equivalent to a crushing defeat, so maybe the scoring system of the automated tournaments is really more of an issue here than the map generator itself?

Edit: if you don't know what a "teddy bear's picnic" is - enjoy . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxFIGWm9M6w

[MikeC_81]

I think that battlefield is OK really. It is probably more likely to produce a draw than the more open battlefields you usually get, I agree. But at deployment, if was playing as the Maroon side, I might have put my C-in-C on top of the hill in the middle of the woods, deployed my foot in the forest on either side of him and maybe put my cavalry out on the open plain on the left. So basically you are inviting the enemy to a teddy bear's picnic. It would take that very steep hill out of play as well. Of course, the other player might have reasons for not wanting to enter the woods and that would lead to a draw. I don't have a problem with draws myself, but in the automated tournaments a low-scoring draw is equivalent to a crushing defeat, so maybe the scoring system of the automated tournaments is really more of an issue here than the map generator itself?

That was not an option unfortunately. The deployment zone was partially cut off by the coast and ended outside the forest and was about 6-8 squares back from the current position. The scoring system itself works fine on maps which is not constricting to both players.

The game would be a lot less interesting if no map presented significant terrain issues to overcome.

Not suggesting that we eliminate terrain from the centre but maybe something to eliminate extreme conditions such as this. Especially the prevalence of extreme terrain like difficult slope and woods/marsh which are no go zones for large number of troop types. Surely there is no need to 3/4 of the centre with such terrain.

[stockwellpete]

That was not an option unfortunately. The deployment zone was partially cut off by the coast and ended outside the forest and was about 6-8 squares back from the current position. The scoring system itself works fine on maps which is not constricting to both players.

OK, I understand, yes. So you would have had to march into the woods to reach the position that I am suggesting.

[rbodleyscott]

The game would be a lot less interesting if no map presented significant terrain issues to overcome.

Not suggesting that we eliminate terrain from the centre but maybe something to eliminate extreme conditions such as this. Especially the prevalence of extreme terrain like difficult slope and woods/marsh which are no go zones for large number of troop types. Surely there is no need to 3/4 of the centre with such terrain.

Not easy to do without eliminating such terrain from the centre entirely. Most maps are not like that, but the nature of randomness (even with weighting difficult terrain towards the edges) means that some maps will be - unless the possibility of difficult terrain in the middle of the map is eliminated completely.

Alternatively we could do some analysis of the final map and then if there was "too much" terrain in the centre, re-roll the whole map.

However, we don't want to do this because in our view occasionally having to dealing with such a difficult map is part of the challenge.

We don't want even tournament games to become too sterile in the interests of "fairness".

[GiveWarAchance]

I think the terrain in that picture is okay. Alexander the Great would be excited about such a challenge. If you attack & lose the match, you can still enjoy the challenge of it unless you are worried about a score in a tournament or something.

[MikeC_81]

The game would be a lot less interesting if no map presented significant terrain issues to overcome.

Not suggesting that we eliminate terrain from the centre but maybe something to eliminate extreme conditions such as this. Especially the prevalence of extreme terrain like difficult slope and woods/marsh which are no go zones for large number of troop types. Surely there is no need to 3/4 of the centre with such terrain.

Not easy to do without eliminating such terrain from the centre entirely. Most maps are not like that, but the nature of randomness (even with weighting difficult terrain towards the edges) means that some maps will be - unless the possibility of difficult terrain in the middle of the map is eliminated completely.

Alternatively we could do some analysis of the final map and then if there was "too much" terrain in the centre, re-roll the whole map.

However, we don't want to do this because in our view occasionally having to dealing with such a difficult map is part of the challenge.

We don't want even tournament games to become too sterile in the interests of "fairness".

Is there a way to code the map generator to check after map generation is complete and reduce the terrain effect? For example, if that ridge was not a difficult slope, I would have no complaints and the game would play out very differently.

I think the terrain in that picture is okay. Alexander the Great would be excited about such a challenge. If you attack & lose the match, you can still enjoy the challenge of it unless you are worried about a score in a tournament or something.

I play to win and I don't see the point of sending my army to its certain doom. Nor is it fair to sit there and ask my opponent to do the same.

[rbodleyscott]

Is there a way to code the map generator to check after map generation is complete and reduce the terrain effect? For example, if that ridge was not a difficult slope, I would have no complaints and the game would play out very differently.

I refer you to my previously reply.

[MikeC_81]

Is there a way to code the map generator to check after map generation is complete and reduce the terrain effect? For example, if that ridge was not a difficult slope, I would have no complaints and the game would play out very differently.

I refer you to my previously reply.

Ok I take it you can't then? Its reroll or nothing?

[jomni]

Is there any consideration with limiting the amount of severe terrain like massive difficult slopes and large swaths of forest and swamp in the central areas of the map or at least limiting the possibility of their size from blocking off huge sections of deployment zones or right in front of it? It is not a huge issue most of the time but there are some maps which are downright un-enjoyable to play. Currently in a map where 1/3 of the map is water, a long ridge with dominating difficult slope with elevation differences of over 100 units runs 1/4 of the map starting at the coast followed by a continuous forest stretching to the map edge the rest of the way.

There is literally a 3 square gap to move through and is situated on my opponent's half of the map which he easily beat me to. I have no choice but to be passive. Similary if he wants to get at me, he has to march down from the ridge and onto my high ground or go through the forest which is surrounded by high ground on my end.

Terrain is great but at some point it becomes excessive to the point where a commander would never do battle in such conditions.

Select Steppe terrain. haha.
That said, the terrain is very crucial for some armies.

[fuzzayd]

To be honest, I find maps like that one very exciting and forces me to play differently than I'd prefer.

[GiveWarAchance]

Here is a very good MP game terrain challenge in the desert. The river between us is perfectly paired with a slope all alongside it. I'm playing the Jewish army. Despite my side seeming to have the slope advantage, I fully intend to bring the fight over the river after a lively exchange of ranged weapon deliveries, although he's going to send a huge cavalry swarm around my flank so the fight will likely turn 90 degrees and the river will become irrelevant. I'm sure it will be a fun game. I can show a late game update if there is interest.

[76mm]

I actually like maps like that, and I've seen much worse. Really makes you think about force selection and deployment...although if you get it wrong--either because of force/map constraints or choices which turn out to be incorrect based on what the opponent does--it certainly makes it harder (or much harder) to win.

[rbodleyscott]

Is there a way to code the map generator to check after map generation is complete and reduce the terrain effect? For example, if that ridge was not a difficult slope, I would have no complaints and the game would play out very differently.

I refer you to my previously reply.

Ok I take it you can't then? Its reroll or nothing?

We probably could but it is already WAD.

[julianbarker]

I have had a few surprising and irritating maps. but as above, they usually turn out to be interesting, challenging and rewarding games that force you to try out new tactics etc.

One I remember had a huge lake in the middle of my deployment area and in advance of it. With not enough room either side to deploy an overwhelming force I had to take on an enemy who was not split by the lake. I was forced to fight two touch and go battles where only at the very end could some victorious units from one side, support the struggle on the other side of the lake.

[Morbio]

I'm trying to find a post that explains how maps are generated and this post is the closest I could find (there's no search capability for the forum ).

Are the army types taken into account when generating maps? I've been playing the Syracusan army a lot recently (which is essentially a hoplite army) versus Dacians and pretty much every map generated includes a significant amount of forest and rough terrain - the proportions may vary, but the terrain is there. I've also noticed that the terrain always seems to be what I'd describe as North European Wooded - I've never seen any other type of map.

Is the terrain type truly random when 'Pot Luck' is selected or is the terrain type random within some constraints based on where the armies are from?

Thanks for any insight that can be shared.