Combat Screen Detail

[Pat.Poison]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and I'm new to this game and I hope, that you can help my with my problem. First of all, I want to say sorry for my bad english, but I'm from germany.

I've read some threads in this forum about the combat detail screen but I've still some questions and I really want to understand this game, becaus it reminds me of PG:

The left picture shows the prediction of the combat. Because of the difference of 1 in the effective initiatives, 20 % of my strength are not allowed to fight. In this case I have a strength of 10, so 2 units won't fight. You can see this result in the "Nicht unterdrückte Stärke" or unsuppressed strength.
In the combat detail screen after the combat, you can see that every unit has the amount of dices to roll equal to the unsuppressed strength. That makes sense. But there are some things not clear to me:

1) In the right picture (after the combat) the unsuppressed strength of my tank is 9. I know that because of the dice roll, there were 2 points added to the effective initiative, but the same goes for the enemy unit. In the end, the difference between our effective inititatives is still 1. So why do I have a unsuppressed strength of 9?

2) In the right picture you can see, that the chance to kill is 26 %. So I need at least a 75 to kill a unit (100 - 26 = 74 plus one to be higher). The only dice, which fulfills this condition is the first red one (90). Easy to understand. But when I look at the chance to suppress a unit (9 %), I think, I need at least a 92. But in this case this would mean that a surpression is also a kill and both of the blue dices are lower than 92. So how do I know, what I need to roll to suppress a unit?

3) Lets look at the second row ("effective attack/effectie defense"): My effective attack of 4 is much lower than the effective defense of the enemy (7). I know that the difference between these two values determine the efficiency of my attack. Is there any way to understand, how the difference between the attack and defense values lead to the needed dice rolls (Miss, Suppressed, Kills)?

Thank you for your help

P.S.: The same thread is in the Matrix games forum because I wasn't sure where I reach more people.

[goose_2]

Hello,



2) In the right picture you can see, that the chance to kill is 26 %. So I need at least a 75 to kill a unit (100 - 26 = 74 plus one to be higher). The only dice, which fulfills this condition is the first red one (90). Easy to understand. But when I look at the chance to surpress a unit (9 %), I think, I need at least a 92. But in this case this would mean that a surpression is also a kill and both of the blue dices are lower than 92. So how do I know, what I need to roll to surpress a unit?

e.

I am curious to see peoples responses to this as well, because this is more of a dep dive on game mechanics than even I have tried to go, but I can answer the #2 question as I believe I understand this one.

26% chance to kill, means any rolls 75 or higher will garner you a kill
9% Suppression, means any roll between 67-74 will garner you 1 suppressed unit
Anything below 65 will miss

Correct me anyone if I am getting this wrong, but that is what i believe it means

[Pat.Poison]

Thanks for your answer!
that means that 100 % is divided into three parts:
0 % - 65 %: miss
66 % - 74 %: suppressed
75 % - 100 %: kill
That is very helpful

[huckc]

Hello,
1) In the right picture (after the combat) the unsurpressed strength of my tank is 9. I know that because of the dice roll, there were 2 points added to the effective initiative, but the same goes for the enemy unit. In the end, the difference between our effective inititatives is still 1. So why do I have a unsurpressed strength of 9?

Here's my take, could be wrong...

The enemy had a higher initiative so it rolled first. He also has a 20% "conversion rate" due to the rule of having +20% for each point of initiative advantage, in this case it's +1 so 20%.

And his result:
2 kills x 20% conversion rate = 0.4 rounded to 0
4 suppressions x 20% conversion rate = 0.8 rounded to 1
Total: 1

10 - 1 = 9 strength left for you to fight back

[Pat.Poison]

Here's my take, could be wrong...

The enemy had a higher initiative so it rolled first. He also has a 20% "conversion rate" due to the rule of having +20% for each point of initiative advantage, in this case it's +1 so 20%.

And his result:
2 kills x 20% conversion rate = 0.4 rounded to 0
4 suppressions x 20% conversion rate = 0.8 rounded to 1
Total: 1

10 - 1 = 9 strength left for you to fight back

Thanks for your answer but I think that you are wrong. As far as I know, the calculation of kills happen after the first half of the combat screen. First the initiative is needed to calculate the unsuppressed strength ("effective strength"), which is needed to determine the amount of dices you get for your roll. AFTER this calculation the calculation of Kills, misses and suppression is made (based on your random dice rolls).
In my opinion, the unsuppressed strength should be the same as in the prediction because the difference of the effective initiatives is important.

[captainjack]

There is also additional suppression for each kill. I'm 99% sure it is [0.5 -(0.1 x target experience stars)] suppression per kil.

So if you kill two strength off a green unit, one extra is suppressed - hence two killed, three suppressed in the attack, but four are actually suppressed because two kills adds an extra supression. If you kil two on a 5* unit no extra is suppressed.

Remember Panzer Corps rounds down, never up so sometimes units with two different experience will come out the same, other times different.

[Pat.Poison]

There is also additional suppression for each kill. I'm 99% sure it is [0.5 -(0.1 x target experience stars)] suppression per kil.

So if you kill two strength off a green unit, one extra is suppressed - hence two killed, three suppressed in the attack, but four are actually suppressed because two kills adds an extra supression. If you kil two on a 5* unit no extra is suppressed.

Remember Panzer Corps rounds down, never up so sometimes units with two different experience will come out the same, other times different.

Thank you for your answer, but as far as I understand this won't help me with my problem, that my unsuppressed strength in the actual combat is 9 but my unsuppressed strength in the prediction BEFORE the combat is 8. In both cases the difference in initiative is 1 (that means that 20 % of my strength of 10 cannot fight) so the unsuppressed strenght MUST be 8 in both cases.

[Argelas]

Initiative advantage does not suppress a certain amount of the enemy's strength. It gives you a chance to do so, but you have to roll kills and suppressions to make it happen.

First thing that is done in combat is compare the initiative. The prediction assumes here, that you roll the same bonus (0-2) as your opponent, so don't rely too much on it.

Now there are two cases:
1) If the initiative is equal, both units fire at the same time. All units can fire with full strength, unless they suffer from long-term-suppressed (by artillery / strategic bombers / reinforcements).
2) If the initiative is not equal (your case), the unit with the higher initiative fires first. Now the unsuppressed strength of the slower unit is calculated, with some of its losses not able to fire back, as explained by others. The unit with the lower initiative then fires with its unsuppressed strength.

The prediction works the same way as the actual combat, except that it does not roll the dice but assumes that x% of your rolls are hits and y% suppressions based on your to-hit chances.
The only complicated thing is rounding. From your screenshots is seems, as others explained, that kills and suppressions are rounded separately (and in this care really rounded, not always rounded down).


An extreme example might make this more clear.

Let's say two full strength units battle. The attacker's initiative is 7 higher than the defender's (for simplicity, so even with worst case 0 / +2 rolls it is still 5).

The actual combat can be goes as follows:
The attacker rolls x kills and y suppressions. The defender can fire back with 10 - x - y strength points.

This includes these extreme special cases:
1) Attacker rolls only kills / suppression. The defender's unsuppressed strength is 0, so he does not fire back.
2) The attacker fires but rolls only misses. The defender can fire back with full strength, as none of his strength points are lost or suppressed.

[Pat.Poison]

Initiative advantage does not suppress a certain amount of the enemy's strength. It gives you a chance to do so, but you have to roll kills and suppressions to make it happen.

1) Okay, that means that the prediction before the combat shows the "worst case" that all rolls for suppression are successful?

And his result:
2 kills x 20% conversion rate = 0.4 rounded to 0
4 suppressions x 20% conversion rate = 0.8 rounded to 1
Total: 1

10 - 1 = 9 strength left for you to fight back

2) If I take your answer and the answer of huckc (quoted above), that means, that in the actual combat the suppressed strength is calculated based on the first strike of the unit with the higher initiative and NOT always automatically 20 % per initiave advantage?

3) Just to get it right: This calculation is NOT made for the unit with the higher initiative because this unit always fights will full strength (if not surpressed by reinforcments, artillery etc.)?

[Argelas]

1) Okay, that means that the prediction before the combat shows the "worst case" that all rolls for suppression are successful?

No, the prediction shows the "average case". If you have an x% chance of suppression, the prediction assumes that x% of the rolls are suppressions. The "worst case", at least for the slower unit, would be if ALL rolls of the fast unit were hits or suppressions.

For example if you fire first, have 10% chance to kill, 40% to suppress and 50% to miss, attack with strength 10 and normal rate of fire, you will have ten rolls. The prediction will assume 10 * 10% = 1 hit, 10 * 40% = 4 suppressions and 10 * 50% = 5 misses. Based on how big the initiative difference is, the prediction will assume that 1 (1 point difference = 20%) to 5 (5 points difference = 100%) strength points will not be able to fire back.

2) If I take your answer and the answer of huckc (quoted above), that means, that in the actual combat the suppressed strength is calculated based on the first strike of the unit with the higher initiative and NOT always automatically 20 % per initiave advantage?

Correct.

3) Just to get it right: This calculation is NOT made for the unit with the higher initiative because this unit always fights will full strength (if not surpressed by reinforcments, artillery etc.)?

Correct.

[Pat.Poison]

No, the prediction shows the "average case". If you have an x% chance of suppression, the prediction assumes that x% of the rolls are suppressions. The "worst case", at least for the slower unit, would be if ALL rolls of the fast unit were hits or suppressions.

For example if you fire first, have 10% chance to kill, 40% to suppress and 50% to miss, attack with strength 10 and normal rate of fire, you will have ten rolls. The prediction will assume 10 * 10% = 1 hit, 10 * 40% = 4 suppressions and 10 * 50% = 5 misses. Based on how big the initiative difference is, the prediction will assume that 1 (1 point difference = 20%) to 5 (5 points difference = 100%) strength points will not be able to fire back.

Thanks for your answer,
lets do this for our screenshot for the enemy unit: The enemy has a Chance to suppres of 10 % and a strength of 10:

10 (strength) * 10 % (Suppression Chance) = 1 Suppression Dice.
because of the initiative difference (ID) of 1:
1 (ID) * 1 (Suppression) * 20 % of strength = 20 % of 10 = 2 --> My unsuppressed strength is 8.

If the ID is 3 that means:
3 (ID) * 1 (Suppression) * 20 % of strength = 60 % of 10 = 6 --> My unsuppressed strength is 4.

If the ID is 2 and the Suppression Chance is 20 % that means:
10 (strength) * 20 % (Suppression Chance ) = 2 Suppression Dice
2 (ID) * 2 (Suppression) * 20 % of strength = 80 % of 10 = 8 --> My unsuppressed strength is 2.

Is it right?

[Argelas]

I think the calculations based on your example were all explained before. Because you talk only about suppression now, remember that "unsuppressed strength" in the context of firing back also has to consider the strength points that were killed, because obviously they can also not fire back.

10 (strength) * 10% (suppression chance) = 1 suppression.
10 (strength) * 35% (kill chance) = 4 kills. Based on some calculations explained above, these generate an extra 2 suppressions.
10 (strength) * 55% (miss chance) = 5 misses

Total result: 4 kills, 3 suppressions, 5 misses.

For the unit that fires second this means
4 strength points are killed. Because of initiative difference of 1, 20% of these are killed before they can fire back. 20% * 4 = 0.8 is rounded to 1. Unsuppressed strength is reduced by 1 for the kills.
3 strength points are suppressed. Because of initiative difference of 1, 20% of these are suppressed before they can fire back. 20% * 3 = 0.6 is rounded to 1. Unsuppressed strength is further reduced by 1 for the suppressions.
3 strength points are unaffected. They always fire back.

So in total, the unsuppressed strength is 10 (original strength) - 1 (killed before they could fire back) - 1 (suppressed before they could fire back) = 8.


For your other examples:

Changing the initiative difference to 3 means 60% of the 4 killed (2.4, rounded to 2) and 60% of the 3 suppressed (1.8, rounded to 2) cannot fire back. So unsuppressed strength is 6.
Changing the initiative difference to 2 and the suppression chance to 20% means (assuming the kill chance stays) that 40% of the 4 killed (1.6, rounded to 2) and 40% of the 4 suppressions (2 directly, 2 extra for the kills, 1.6, rounded to 2) cannot fire back. So unsuppressed strength is 6.

Maybe it helps to think of it that way:
With equal initiative, both units fire at the same time. Unsuppressed strength is original strength for both sides.
With initiative difference of 5 or higher, the faster unit fires first. Casualties are removed, suppressions applied. The slower unit fires back only with its strength points that are neither killed nor suppressed.
When the initiative difference (ID) is between 1 and 4, the faster starts firing a bit earlier, and the fight then changes to simultaneous fire. Results for the faster unit are still calculated before the other unit fires back, but only ID * 20% of the kills / suppressions are immediately applied (they are assumed to have happend in the first strike phase). The remaining killed / suppressed strength points of the slower unit can fire back, together with all strength points that are unaffected, and the effect takes place afterwards (they are assumed to be killed / suppressed in the simultaneous fire phase).