Mid-Republican Roman - any flexibility?

[MattDower]

I am sorting out my Mid-Republican Army for FoG and wonder how much flexibility there is with the proportions of troops.

Given the troops I have I am finding it very difficult to balance the proportions and try out different Battlegroup sizes.

I can form a "Legion" out of 2,4,4,4 (Triarii, Hastarti,Pricapes, Velites)
or out of 4,8,8,8

Am I able to use Hastati/Pricapes of 6 bases? (this would require either Triarii to be 3 bases or not quite in proportion)

Isn't it fair to have some leeway in Battlegroup sizes?
This could represent proportions changing as Legions become smaller due to casualties and wastage.
If not, it would seem an unnecessary restriction for a Roman Army.

Matt

[SirGarnet]

You can vary BG size to have 6 base BGs of the heavies, such as 2,2 - 6,6,4 - 4,4. Just need the overall proportion.

[MattDower]

You can vary BG size to have 6 base BGs of the heavies, such as 2,2 - 6,6,4 - 4,4. Just need the overall proportion.

The preamble suggests you should must form the Battlegroups into Legions - this would make the Legions unbalanced: 2- 6,4 - 4 and 2 - 6 - 4.
Is this a problem?

Is is not a problem it begs a question - if a legion can vary in proportions / why not an army?

Matt

[SirGarnet]

I was suggesting a Legion as 2x2 Triarii, 6 6 and 4 Hastati/Principes and 2x4 Velites - all it does is keep the triarii in 2 BGs rather than 1 BG and break the heavies into 3 BGs rather than 2 or 4. This is as the writers are very careful with language and "could be" does not exclude numbers other than 2 the way that "must be" or "can only be" would have done. You could also have 8, 4, and 4, bearing in mind that each BG represents both Hastati and Principes.

[jlopez]

I was suggesting a Legion as 2x2 Triarii, 6 6 and 4 Hastati/Principes and 2x4 Velites - all it does is keep the triarii in 2 BGs rather than 1 BG and break the heavies into 3 BGs rather than 2 or 4. This is as the writers are very careful with language and "could be" does not exclude numbers other than 2 the way that "must be" or "can only be" would have done. You could also have 8, 4, and 4, bearing in mind that each BG represents both Hastati and Principes.

I agree although poor old Cato must be turning in his grave at such a blatant manipulation of the manipular system. SHAME ON YOU!

Personally, I tend to go for the 8 base BGs of Hastati/Principes. That way you get most benefit out of your TCs. Triarii in 2s are a no-no as they are just too vulnerable to autobreak and being one of your best troops you want to make use of them.

Julian

[SirGarnet]

I agree although poor old Cato must be turning in his grave at such a blatant manipulation of the manipular system. SHAME ON YOU!

They were designed for flexible maniple-ation.

[MattDower]

Personally, I tend to go for the 8 base BGs of Hastati/Principes. That way you get most benefit out of your TCs. Triarii in 2s are a no-no as they are just too vulnerable to autobreak and being one of your best troops you want to make use of them.

Julian

Given Mike's "Could be" argument and the problem with 2 base Triarii units you could group 2 Triarii units together which would effectively leave 1 "legion" without Triarii and 1 with double contingent of Triarii?

As I suspected, the rigid proportions does limit flexibilty in a significant way.
Quite a shame for perhaps the most flexible army of its day!!

Matt

[jlopez]

Given Mike's "Could be" argument and the problem with 2 base Triarii units you could group 2 Triarii units together which would effectively leave 1 "legion" without Triarii and 1 with double contingent of Triarii?

As I suspected, the rigid proportions does limit flexibilty in a significant way.
Quite a shame for perhaps the most flexible army of its day!!

Matt

I see no reason why you can't have two legions with 1 BG of 6 velites, 2 BGs of 6 Hast/Prin. and one legion with 2 Triarii and the other with 4 Triarii. It's not your fault if the rules don't allow uneven numbers of bases in BGs.

It was flexible in the actual fighting compared to the Macedonain phalanx but in terms of the overall battle the manipular legions were pretty monolithic and rarely diverged from the good old frontal charge. The times when it did go for something a little more interesting are few and far between and rightly recognised as masterpieces of manoeuvering.

I've used the MRR in one competition (all average, all units of 8 bases and Triarii in 4s) and stuck to the historical deployment with velites in front, a compact line of legionnaries and the Triarii in reserve. They did a lot better than I expected and only got into difficulties when they started doing fancy manoeuvers. Good old Varro was right, keep it tight, sod the flanks and stick them.

Julian

[BrianC]

I am glad this topic was raised as I am working on a Mid Republican Roman army for my next game on the weekend. I was always under the impression that you had to keep your BGs assigned to legions within an army. In other words you keep the BGs separate.

So if I understand the above right, if I have an army with 2 legions I can give them each a different makeup as long as the total ratios are legal. In other words I can have 1 Velite BG of 8 bases rather than 2 BGs of 4 bases. I can have one legion with a BG of 8 bases. Another legion I can have 2 BGs of 4 bases each. Same with the Triarii. I can leave them in 2's or make BGs of 4 and in doing so not all legions will have Triarii behind them. The make up of the legions don't have to be the same?

Do I have the logic right?

Thanks

Brian

[jlopez]

I am glad this topic was raised as I am working on a Mid Republican Roman army for my next game on the weekend. I was always under the impression that you had to keep your BGs assigned to legions within an army. In other words you keep the BGs separate.

So if I understand the above right, if I have an army with 2 legions I can give them each a different makeup as long as the total ratios are legal. In other words I can have 1 Velite BG of 8 bases rather than 2 BGs of 4 bases. I can have one legion with a BG of 8 bases. Another legion I can have 2 BGs of 4 bases each. Same with the Triarii. I can leave them in 2's or make BGs of 4 and in doing so not all legions will have Triarii behind them. The make up of the legions don't have to be the same?

Do I have the logic right?

Thanks

Brian

Correct. The only problem is respecting the ratios.

Julian

[SirGarnet]

Yes. The "Legion" structure creates requirements for your total recruitment but is not part of the rules. In addition, while I think a couple of legions is the right "feel" concept for FoG behind the flanks of the line, fewer bases may be considered to represent more troops, or more understrength legions, in some battles.

Using classic Roman formation with triarii in flank guard/rear support at the ends of the line looks good and also works, they having been provided in suitable proportions. Use BG in sizes that work for you. I like 2-base elite triarii, though below elite I'd consider one 4. There are uses for 4, 6 and 8-base legionary BGs.

Mike

[MarkSieber]

My understanding of the list is that 2-4-4 or 4-8-8 were the only two allowable configurations, and that all legions have to be the same, as this represents larger or smaller scales, not differences within the same scale. In other words, a smaller battle with two legions might be represented as 4-8-8 but to represent a larger battle within the points allowed would be represented 2-4-4.

I've found the 2-base Triarii to be excellent reserves, first providing support, then, if needed, coming out to fight and lasting a reasonable amount of time.

[SirGarnet]

My understanding of the list is that 2-4-4 or 4-8-8 were the only two allowable configurations, and that all legions have to be the same.

It would be simpler if specific legion configurations were mandated, but the language as to BG size is not mandatory. It does mandate proportionality in recruitment. It does require organization into legions of hastati/principes and triarii (velites not mentioned), but doesn't say all legions must be the same and doesn't say they must deploy or move in any particular relationship.

That said, having 4x4 and 1x8 hastati/principes, 3x2 triarii, and 3x4 Velites is a serviceable mix.

[LambertSimnel]

My understanding of the list is that 2-4-4 or 4-8-8 were the only two allowable configurations, and that all legions have to be the same.

It would be simpler if specific legion configurations were mandated, but the language as to BG size is not mandatory. It does mandate proportionality in recruitment. It does require organization into legions of hastati/principes and triarii (velites not mentioned), but doesn't say all legions must be the same and doesn't say they must deploy or move in any particular relationship.

That said, having 4x4 and 1x8 hastati/principes, 3x2 triarii, and 3x4 Velites is a serviceable mix.

The problem with the list is the second paragraph of the notes (paraphrasing non critical portions in square brackets):

[Legionaries] must be organised as legions ... Depending on [scale] a legion could be organised as [2 * 4 Hastati/Principes & 1 * 2 Trarii or 2 * 8 Hastati/Principes & 1 * 4 Trarii]

The problem is that using the word could does not make it perfectly clear whether the provided organizations are the only ones allowed. If it used must then it would be clear that these were the only possibilities. Which would lead one to think that the choice of could was made to allow different make ups. However, if that interpretation is taken then what are we to make of the word must in the first sentence? That implies that there exist ways of organizing legionaries that, though compliant with the unit size limits, are not allowed. What are they?

Personally I would group all my legionaries in 4s and 2s or all in 8s and 4s so as not to run the risk of colliding with a competition list checker with a strict interpretation of the paragraph.

Also, since that paragraph doesn't mention Velites/Leves, it appears that you are free to take them as 4s, 6s or 8s regardless of how you organise your legions.

[BrianC]

After reading the section last night on legion sizes I think you are limited to 2 versions of a legion.

1) 2 BGs of 4 bases of Hastati and Principe + 1 BG of 2 bases of triarii = 10 bases

2) 2 BGs of 8 bases of Hastati and Principe + 1 BG of 4 bases of triarii = 20 bases

The wording does say could and or. So you could field an army as above of 1 or 2. IMO it limits you to the above structure. Regarding the velite you still have to meet the 1 per 2 criteria so would have either 4 or 8 in each legion. So I can't see Roman BGs being 6 bases at all.

Can someone official make sense of this for us?

Thanks

Brian