Is it me, or are there far too many 'held firm' results, especially in cases of attacks on fragmented units? This is something that I find a bit excessive.
Cheers
Alex
Held Firm?
Re: Held Firm?
Its called luck my friend. Just remember a couple of things though.
A unit will retain its dice roll for all Cohesion Tests (CT) of that particular type for that turn. So say you are dogpiling an enemy unit with 3 of your own and the enemy unit is fragmented. If it loses a round of Melee and rolls a 12 or something and Hold Firm, that 12 will be kept for all subsequent CTs it has to take from melee. So it is unlikely your other two units that have yet to resolve their combats will break the enemy unit either unless its actions caused additional negative modifiers to push that unit over the failure threshold.
Here is an example:
3 Roman Legionaries locked in melee combat vs a Fragmented Pike unit. No generals, the Pike does not present an exposed flank. Pike unit has suffered 15% casualties.
The first Roman Legionary wins combat. The Pike unit will be forced to roll 2 dice and have a score of 6 or better after subtracting 3 from the die roll due to CT modifiers (-1 for taking excessive close combat damage, -1 for losing close combat badly, -2 for being Fragmented, +1 for being Heavy Foot). That means a score of 9 will do it. It has just under 28% chance of hitting this mark or better and rolls exactly a 9. You got unlucky. The other 2 Roman Legionaries will now resolve their combat and almost certainly win and force additional CT checks. However, the Pike unit will keep the score of 9 and thus continue to pass all other melee CTs. That is unless the subsequent combats somehow impose an additional negative CT modifier. Let us say the 3rd Legionary wins combat like the two before it but the casualties the Pike unit suffered over 3 combats push it over the 25% casualty threshold. Any unit that has sustained more than 25% losses has to take CTs with an additional -1 on top of any other modifiers. The Pike will now proceed to fail the third CT because its score of 9 is how being subtracted by 4 instead of 3 and presents a final tally of 5.
That 9, however, is not retained for other CT types. For example, a fragmented unit that faces a charge must pass a CT. So if you have a unit that can charge the Fragmented Pike unit after all this. Even if it rolled really well in the melee CT, it must now make a new die roll for that particular check. This will one will be made at -2 since several of the previous modifiers don't apply (-1 for having lost close combat badly, -2 for being Fragmented, +1 for Heavy Foot). This new CT test will now roll fresh dice and testing at -2 means that the Fragmented Pike now has a 42% chance of passing this new test.
Another thing to note is that a unit cannot lose more than one Cohesion Level from any source (close combat, melee, friends breaking near them etc) on the same turn unless it is from the dreaded "double drop" which results when a unit has lost combat badly that turn and fails CT with a final tally of 2 or less. Going back to the previous example, let us say the Pike started the turn as Disrupted, and lost the first melee combat, failed the CT but not badly enough to double drop, and so fell into Fragmented status. The other two Legionaries will almost certainly win their combats but the CT from those lost combats will be listed as Hold Firm since the game will not allow them to drop Cohesion Levels twice from the same source.
RBS will have to confirm this but my understanding is that if one of those subsequent melees introduce additional negative modifiers and the finally tally then falls to 2, then the double drop does kick in and you can go to fall another Cohesion Level at that point.
A unit will retain its dice roll for all Cohesion Tests (CT) of that particular type for that turn. So say you are dogpiling an enemy unit with 3 of your own and the enemy unit is fragmented. If it loses a round of Melee and rolls a 12 or something and Hold Firm, that 12 will be kept for all subsequent CTs it has to take from melee. So it is unlikely your other two units that have yet to resolve their combats will break the enemy unit either unless its actions caused additional negative modifiers to push that unit over the failure threshold.
Here is an example:
3 Roman Legionaries locked in melee combat vs a Fragmented Pike unit. No generals, the Pike does not present an exposed flank. Pike unit has suffered 15% casualties.
The first Roman Legionary wins combat. The Pike unit will be forced to roll 2 dice and have a score of 6 or better after subtracting 3 from the die roll due to CT modifiers (-1 for taking excessive close combat damage, -1 for losing close combat badly, -2 for being Fragmented, +1 for being Heavy Foot). That means a score of 9 will do it. It has just under 28% chance of hitting this mark or better and rolls exactly a 9. You got unlucky. The other 2 Roman Legionaries will now resolve their combat and almost certainly win and force additional CT checks. However, the Pike unit will keep the score of 9 and thus continue to pass all other melee CTs. That is unless the subsequent combats somehow impose an additional negative CT modifier. Let us say the 3rd Legionary wins combat like the two before it but the casualties the Pike unit suffered over 3 combats push it over the 25% casualty threshold. Any unit that has sustained more than 25% losses has to take CTs with an additional -1 on top of any other modifiers. The Pike will now proceed to fail the third CT because its score of 9 is how being subtracted by 4 instead of 3 and presents a final tally of 5.
That 9, however, is not retained for other CT types. For example, a fragmented unit that faces a charge must pass a CT. So if you have a unit that can charge the Fragmented Pike unit after all this. Even if it rolled really well in the melee CT, it must now make a new die roll for that particular check. This will one will be made at -2 since several of the previous modifiers don't apply (-1 for having lost close combat badly, -2 for being Fragmented, +1 for Heavy Foot). This new CT test will now roll fresh dice and testing at -2 means that the Fragmented Pike now has a 42% chance of passing this new test.
Another thing to note is that a unit cannot lose more than one Cohesion Level from any source (close combat, melee, friends breaking near them etc) on the same turn unless it is from the dreaded "double drop" which results when a unit has lost combat badly that turn and fails CT with a final tally of 2 or less. Going back to the previous example, let us say the Pike started the turn as Disrupted, and lost the first melee combat, failed the CT but not badly enough to double drop, and so fell into Fragmented status. The other two Legionaries will almost certainly win their combats but the CT from those lost combats will be listed as Hold Firm since the game will not allow them to drop Cohesion Levels twice from the same source.
RBS will have to confirm this but my understanding is that if one of those subsequent melees introduce additional negative modifiers and the finally tally then falls to 2, then the double drop does kick in and you can go to fall another Cohesion Level at that point.
Stratford Scramble Tournament
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093
FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=494&t=99766&p=861093#p861093
FoG 2 Post Game Analysis Series on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKmEROEwX2fgjoQLlQULhPg/
-
AlexDetrojan
- Master Sergeant - Bf 109E
- Posts: 459
- Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:48 pm
Re: Held Firm?
Thanks MikeC. Makes sense.
-
rbodleyscott
- Field of Glory 2
- Posts: 28411
- Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:25 pm
Re: Held Firm?
Mike has it right.
In the tabletop game units only take one cohesion test after all shooting is resolved, and one cohesion test after all melees have been resolved. Because the game adopts a less rigid sequence of play, this is not possible, but it is simulated by each unit having a single random roll for all shooting CTs, and another for all close combat CTs in a turn. What Mike describes follows from this.
If each cohesion test for these causes had its own roll, the chance of the unit sooner or later failing when being shot at by multiple units, or in close combat with multiple units, would be much higher than in the tabletop game, and much higher than we intend. The whole cohesion test system would have to be re-balanced accordingly. To avoid this, we used the system described above.
In the tabletop game units only take one cohesion test after all shooting is resolved, and one cohesion test after all melees have been resolved. Because the game adopts a less rigid sequence of play, this is not possible, but it is simulated by each unit having a single random roll for all shooting CTs, and another for all close combat CTs in a turn. What Mike describes follows from this.
If each cohesion test for these causes had its own roll, the chance of the unit sooner or later failing when being shot at by multiple units, or in close combat with multiple units, would be much higher than in the tabletop game, and much higher than we intend. The whole cohesion test system would have to be re-balanced accordingly. To avoid this, we used the system described above.
Richard Bodley Scott
