Later Crusader - First Time Attempt

[Omar]

My buddy decided to give FoG a try, and we played around with the list to come up with a decent 750pt list. Here is what we came up with. Feedback is appreciated. List is after 1150.

FC
TC X 2
Military Order Knights (4) X 3
Other Knights (4)
Turcopoles [Drilled] (4)
Other Spearmen [Armoured] (6) X 2
Other Crossbowmen (6) X 2

His plan was to have the spearmen and crossbowmen in the center, with knights on the flanks (or directly up the center) to hit them hard as soon as possible. Wants to play an aggressive list which can maneuver well as needed (thus, the drilled knights and turcopoles).

[SirGarnet]

On the macro level, the question is whether the force fits the foe - tournament lists have to hedge against more possibilities than, say, historical opponents, with whom you might find the mixed formations useful at crowding and engaging shooty cavalry and LH opponents. 4 BGs is a large number of Knights, but leading with your strength is rarely a bad idea.

On the micro level, I came up with 740 points based on your post. I played around with it and you may consider the following idea.

Wheeling or short moving with undrilled foot is a difficult move within 6 MU of enemy - it can be painful for archers to fail CMTs and be unable to aim their volleys or otherwise respond to enemy frontal and flank threats. Similarly, with only two BGs of Spearmen you may want them to be responsive enough to face a flank and possibly also move.

Unless I was confident they would not be encircled, I'd consider upgrading the foot to drilled and consolidating the 2 Crossbow BGs into one of 8 bases (or the mixed rank formations if you know you will be facing mounted opponents).

I'd also add 2 bases to one of the Spearmen BGs. Armoured Spearmen are an excellent troop type to face most tough opponents, a short line is vulnerable at the flanks. The 8 would be put where more exposed to shooting and the 6 could be on flank or rear.

I'd raise the needed points by downgrading the Turcopoles to Undrilled - the only Complex Move Test difference with Undrilled Cavalry is in difficulty of Expansions (such as going into one line to skirmish) and you need to roll 8 rather than 7 to pass a CMT. The Turcopoles job is likely to be covering a flank of knights as they attack.

If you can recruit enough bases, I'd suggest in trying your army as is first with the Undrilled foot vs. a Saracen-like shooty mounted enemy to see how it works and see if you are comfortable with the maneuver issues.

Others may have experience using this army to share.

Mike

750 points
FC+2 TC 8 BGs
Turcopoles Cv Protected Average Undrilled Bw* Light spear Swordsmen 4@11=44
Other Crossbow MF Protected Average Drilled Bow 8@7=56
Military Order Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Military Order Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Military Order Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Other Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Undrilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Spears HF Armoured Average Drilled defensive spearmen 8@9=72
Spears HF Armoured Average Drilled defensive spearmen 6@9=72

[Omar]

Micro/Macro?

Anyway, I will pass that along to my friend. Your suggestions sound very reasonable, and should not be a problem.

We might be facing period opponents, but probably not (with me playing Byzantine/Principate Roman, another guy playing Carthaginians, and another with Classical Indian). After playing a few games of DBA, he decided that he needs something a bit more in depth, and wants to buy a FoG army in a hurry. Crusader is the period he is interested in, and I suggested Later as they have many more options.

Originally we were considering going with the mixed spear/crossbow, but it seemed (to me) to be a waste. Too few bases shooting to really accomplish anything. I figured lots of knight, you cant really go wrong there.

[SirGarnet]

Micro/Macro?

We might be facing period opponents, but probably not (with me playing Byzantine/Principate Roman, another guy playing Carthaginians, and another with Classical Indian). After playing a few games of DBA, he decided that he needs something a bit more in depth, and wants to buy a FoG army in a hurry. Crusader is the period he is interested in, and I suggested Later as they have many more options.

Originally we were considering going with the mixed spear/crossbow, but it seemed (to me) to be a waste. Too few bases shooting to really accomplish anything. I figured lots of knight, you cant really go wrong there.

The Knights are the battle winners. Everything else is to help them do that. The foot are usually going to play it safe or act as a mobile terrain piece to help cover the attack of the Knights. Mixed formations are really an anti-Sipahi force suitable for fighting Saracens and similar cavalry-based armies, though they can also beat off LH or LF with shooting.

Armoured foot mixed with crossbow is useful to engage eastern cavalry or LH who would otherwise shoot and evade against the Spearmen without reply. Not so good vs. heavily armoured Knights. The rear rank support shooting largely offsets the loss of the 2-rank Spear POA.

However, straight Armoured Spearmen are much more versatile, good against Pikes, Elephants and other enemy the Knights want to avoid - better vs, the opponents listed.

What's missing from the list for competitive purposes is the lighter troops - skirmishers to screen, harass and cover flanks and good MF and LF to deal with terrain. You can get some of these with Allies, but it sounds like your friend wants an aggressive big punch and not diluting it for balance. The alternative is to practice terrain strategy and placement to get that down cold in order to get battlefields with enough suitable room for the army to attack.

Good luck

Mike

[david53]

On the macro level, the question is whether the force fits the foe - tournament lists have to hedge against more possibilities than, say, historical opponents, with whom you might find the mixed formations useful at crowding and engaging shooty cavalry and LH opponents. 4 BGs is a large number of Knights, but leading with your strength is rarely a bad idea.

On the micro level, I came up with 740 points based on your post. I played around with it and you may consider the following idea.

Wheeling or short moving with undrilled foot is a difficult move within 6 MU of enemy - it can be painful for archers to fail CMTs and be unable to aim their volleys or otherwise respond to enemy frontal and flank threats. Similarly, with only two BGs of Spearmen you may want them to be responsive enough to face a flank and possibly also move.

Unless I was confident they would not be encircled, I'd consider upgrading the foot to drilled and consolidating the 2 Crossbow BGs into one of 8 bases (or the mixed rank formations if you know you will be facing mounted opponents).

I'd also add 2 bases to one of the Spearmen BGs. Armoured Spearmen are an excellent troop type to face most tough opponents, a short line is vulnerable at the flanks. The 8 would be put where more exposed to shooting and the 6 could be on flank or rear.

I'd raise the needed points by downgrading the Turcopoles to Undrilled - the only Complex Move Test difference with Undrilled Cavalry is in difficulty of Expansions (such as going into one line to skirmish) and you need to roll 8 rather than 7 to pass a CMT. The Turcopoles job is likely to be covering a flank of knights as they attack.

If you can recruit enough bases, I'd suggest in trying your army as is first with the Undrilled foot vs. a Saracen-like shooty mounted enemy to see how it works and see if you are comfortable with the maneuver issues.

Others may have experience using this army to share.

Mike

750 points
FC+2 TC 8 BGs
Turcopoles Cv Protected Average Undrilled Bw* Light spear Swordsmen 4@11=44
Other Crossbow MF Protected Average Drilled Bow 8@7=56
Military Order Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Military Order Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Military Order Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Other Knights etc. Kn Heavily armoured Superior Undrilled Lancers Swordsmen 4@26=104
Spears HF Armoured Average Drilled defensive spearmen 8@9=72
Spears HF Armoured Average Drilled defensive spearmen 6@9=72

I have played this army for a few months and entered with it at Warfare.
What you have to look at what are the killers in your army and they are your Knights. All other troop types are to be used to support them.
Sorry but from my reading of the list you can only have 0 to 8 bases of drilled spearmen (Militery order)all other spearmen must be undrilled, the Other Knights are only 23 points.
With my experience of using this army you miss light troops when fighting with them so I have changed my Late Crusader army to one with Syrian States Ally, that way you have still Knights but aslso LC
Knights Sup 4 x 26..................104
Knights Sup 4 x 23..................92
Crossbows 8 x 6.....................48
Spears 8 x 8...........................64
Spears 8 x 9............................72
Ally
Cav Sup Bow 4 x 19........................76
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10...........................40
1 x FC...........................................50
2 x TC...........................................70
Ally FC..........................................40
736 Points
I find this is a good make up it allows you the LC required they can cover your Knights as they go in and the foot can remain in the rear as a body to fall back on if required. However its used its good fun.
Dave

[Omar]

I have played this army for a few months and entered with it at Warfare.
What you have to look at what are the killers in your army and they are your Knights. All other troop types are to be used to support them.
Sorry but from my reading of the list you can only have 0 to 8 bases of drilled spearmen (Militery order)all other spearmen must be undrilled, the Other Knights are only 23 points.
With my experience of using this army you miss light troops when fighting with them so I have changed my Late Crusader army to one with Syrian States Ally, that way you have still Knights but aslso LC
Knights Sup 4 x 26..................104
Knights Sup 4 x 23..................92
Crossbows 8 x 6.....................48
Spears 8 x 8...........................64
Spears 8 x 9............................72
Ally
Cav Sup Bow 4 x 19........................76
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10...........................40
1 x FC...........................................50
2 x TC...........................................70
Ally FC..........................................40
736 Points
I find this is a good make up it allows you the LC required they can cover your Knights as they go in and the foot can remain in the rear as a body to fall back on if required. However its used its good fun.
Dave

Your list has no military order knights, which is the problem. He moves with his army, ALOT, and wants as much of it drilled as he can get.

Will have to go with a unit of 8 other spearmen, and 8 military order spears.

I will suggest allies, I agree that it is totally lacking a screen. Can only wait and see what he wants to do. Maybe the punch will be worth it for him.

[david53]

Knights Sup 4 x 26..................104
Knights Sup 4 x 23..................92
Crossbows 8 x 6.....................48
Spears 8 x 8...........................64
Spears 8 x 9............................72
Ally
Cav Sup Bow 4 x 19........................76
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10...........................40
1 x FC...........................................50
2 x TC...........................................70
Ally FC..........................................40
736 Points
I find this is a good make up it allows you the LC required they can cover your Knights as they go in and the foot can remain in the rear as a body to fall back on if required. However its used its good fun.
Dave

Your list has no military order knights, which is the problem. He moves with his army, ALOT, and wants as much of it drilled as he can get.

Will have to go with a unit of 8 other spearmen, and 8 military order spears.

I will suggest allies, I agree that it is totally lacking a screen. Can only wait and see what he wants to do. Maybe the punch will be worth it for him.

My first unit of four bases in the list above are the militery order knights drilled hence 26 points each should have explained it better
the second unit is the normal knights 23 points both from after 1150 I have found without skirmishers the Hy knights both drilled and undrilled can be forced to charge due to enemies LC coming close. The times played with ally lot better they shot the knights in to the enemy. Still each to there own

Cheers
Dave

[Omar]

So, got my buddy on the computer and he saw the list, spent about an hour going over it, and decided to go with it with the allies as listed.

Now, my question (and his too, likely) is... how do you play an army like this?

[david53]

So, got my buddy on the computer and he saw the list, spent about an hour going over it, and decided to go with it with the allies as listed.

Now, my question (and his too, likely) is... how do you play an army like this?

With luck you get to pick terrian. keep centre and one side as clear as you can

Place your camp well away from enemy either left or right

Place infantry out first around the camp in Battle line 10 inchs from base

Infantry in middle crossbows either side of Spears with General

Ally LC units one line 15 inchs out either flank but all one side

Ally HC behind LC them with general

Knights in Battle line with general behind HC

Plan is to overwhelm one flank

Enemy centre with be worried by cavalry action on its open flank

Enemy unoccupied flank will try and strengthen attacked flank with luck before they arrive you should have cleared a path for your Knights to charge anything in front with LC support and HC can wheel and confront enemy centre.

While this is on advace infantry as quick as you can.

With luck as allways winning one flank will allow a sweep to the centre.

Dave

sounds easy not allways but lots of fun.

[Omar]

I have played this army for a few months and entered with it at Warfare.
What you have to look at what are the killers in your army and they are your Knights. All other troop types are to be used to support them.
Sorry but from my reading of the list you can only have 0 to 8 bases of drilled spearmen (Militery order)all other spearmen must be undrilled, the Other Knights are only 23 points.
With my experience of using this army you miss light troops when fighting with them so I have changed my Late Crusader army to one with Syrian States Ally, that way you have still Knights but aslso LC
Knights Sup 4 x 26..................104
Knights Sup 4 x 23..................92
Crossbows 8 x 6.....................48
Spears 8 x 8...........................64
Spears 8 x 9............................72
Ally
Cav Sup Bow 4 x 19........................76
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10............................40
LC Av Bow 4 x 10...........................40
1 x FC...........................................50
2 x TC...........................................70
Ally FC..........................................40
736 Points
I find this is a good make up it allows you the LC required they can cover your Knights as they go in and the foot can remain in the rear as a body to fall back on if required. However its used its good fun.
Dave

Looking at the Syrian States Allies, I think there is a mistake there. You can only take up to 8 bases of the Light Horse Bow.

Perhaps replace the last unit with one of the Light Foot bowmen? That would leave 20pts still though.

[Omar]

Taking the advice presented I came up with this:

Inspired Commander
2xTroop Commanders
Mil Order Knights (4)
Mil Order Knights (4)
Other Knights (4)
Other Spearmen (6)
Other Spearmen (6)
Other Crossbowmen (6)

Allied Troop Commander (Syrian)
Ghilman (4)
Turcomans (4)
Turcomans (4)


That gives the list two units of the best knights (the military order knights), and another of the Other Knights. The Turcomans and Ghilman can help them get to where they are going, maybe supporting as able. The Spearmen and Crossbowmen will (hopefully) hang back, maybe act as mobile terrain which my opponent will hopefully avoid. Failing that they can protect the camp.

Its a 30pt difference between the minimum required spear/CB and the 'all or nothing' Richard I campaign, which I kinda like. Would of liked to of had the points for Syrian Foot Archers, even if only the four bases. The total lack of LF in this list bugs me. But, thats just my preference.

Comments?

[Omar]

Took a look at the other allies available, and came up with this. For all of the responses I got early on, I hope someone comments.


IC
2xTC
Military Order Knights (4)
Other Knights (4)
Other Spearmen (6)
Other Crossbowmen (6)

FC (Byzantine Allies)
Latinikon (4) - Superior
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Byzantine Arches (6) - Average/LF


The problem I had with the Syrian states is that we have a unit of Cavalry which really doesnt fit with the plan, but is mandatory. Here, you basically replace a unit of Military Order Knights with the Latinikon (same stats), plus you get the 3 units of 4 LH that was suggested, and a decent unit of LF Bow.

In a pinch, you could trade one of the TC for a fortified camp.

Of the two, this is the one I am going to recommend my friend go with, unless someone sees a hole or something that I have missed.

[mic]

Good subject gents
I have run late crusades at one tourny and also some friendlies and I think you need the ally.
I went for the byzantine ally after 1150 ad and basically had a unit of byzantine knights and 3 units of light horse. I had 2 units of undrilled knights and some spearmen, xbow and turcos
I took the spearmen as armored they were awesome no one came near them. I think I will down grade the spears to protected and take my chances, the xbow were sh*t I need more practice!
the turcos were good and I think you need 3 units of knights one of which should be the drilled mil orders and kept in reserve.
The allied LH and Knight unit were well worth there points.
I have considered the syiaN ally I think they may work even better then the byzantines
regards mick

[david53]

Took a look at the other allies available, and came up with this. For all of the responses I got early on, I hope someone comments.


IC
2xTC
Military Order Knights (4)
Other Knights (4)
Other Spearmen (6)
Other Crossbowmen (6)

FC (Byzantine Allies)
Latinikon (4) - Superior
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Byzantine Arches (6) - Average/LF


The problem I had with the Syrian states is that we have a unit of Cavalry which really doesnt fit with the plan, but is mandatory. Here, you basically replace a unit of Military Order Knights with the Latinikon (same stats), plus you get the 3 units of 4 LH that was suggested, and a decent unit of LF Bow.

In a pinch, you could trade one of the TC for a fortified camp.

Of the two, this is the one I am going to recommend my friend go with, unless someone sees a hole or something that I have missed.

Sorry but you need 12 bases spearmen
Dave

[david53]

sorry double hit on comp.
Dave

[Omar]

Oops, my bad. Actually, I accounted for the points of two units, I just listed the one. Two units of 6.

So, other than that, any problems?


As for Syrians vs Byzantines, like I said above.. Syrians you have to take a unit of 4 cav with bows, which works.. but doesnt really fit into the overall plan. I was struggling for points so that I could also have the knights I wanted. With the Byzantines, we have the two units of 'military order knights' (one Crusader, one Byzantine), the unit of other knights, and everything else is there to support them. Three units of LH (can only take 2 with Syrians), and the LF Archers to go out ahead of them, with the spears/CB to hang back.

Now that I look at it, I could drop a TC and buy another unit of 'other crossbow'. Not sure if thats worthwhile, but gives me more battlegroups.

[david53]

Oops, my bad. Actually, I accounted for the points of two units, I just listed the one. Two units of 6.

So, other than that, any problems?


As for Syrians vs Byzantines, like I said above.. Syrians you have to take a unit of 4 cav with bows, which works.. but doesnt really fit into the overall plan. I was struggling for points so that I could also have the knights I wanted. With the Byzantines, we have the two units of 'military order knights' (one Crusader, one Byzantine), the unit of other knights, and everything else is there to support them. Three units of LH (can only take 2 with Syrians), and the LF Archers to go out ahead of them, with the spears/CB to hang back.

Now that I look at it, I could drop a TC and buy another unit of 'other crossbow'. Not sure if thats worthwhile, but gives me more battlegroups.

I think for your style the Byzantines are great. I found in an open comp Roll Call people were worried by the knights. They are the best troops in your army all the rest are there to support. Against other cavalry Knights should have no worries, against infantry you have to use LH to shoot them down a level and then charge in. I in my first few games with this army failed to use the Knights as they should be controled charges. As long as you have light troops its a good army have fun keep me informed.
Dave

[Omar]

I think for your style the Byzantines are great. I found in an open comp Roll Call people were worried by the knights. They are the best troops in your army all the rest are there to support. Against other cavalry Knights should have no worries, against infantry you have to use LH to shoot them down a level and then charge in. I in my first few games with this army failed to use the Knights as they should be controled charges. As long as you have light troops its a good army have fun keep me informed.
Dave

In part my style, in part my friends. He is a 'CHARGE! CHARGE! CHARGE!' kinda guy from what he described, and having fewer 'fiddly' parts in the army is best. The Knights Charge. The LH harass. The LF Skirmish. The Spear/CB hold a flank. Simple.

[Ghaznavid]

Took a look at the other allies available, and came up with this. For all of the responses I got early on, I hope someone comments.

IC
2xTC
Military Order Knights (4)
Other Knights (4)
Other Spearmen (6)
Other Crossbowmen (6)

FC (Byzantine Allies)
Latinikon (4) - Superior
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Turkopouloi (4) - LH
Byzantine Arches (6) - Average/LF

Not so sure about that large an ally. Your skirmishers can easily end up all over the place and with only 1 Commander to support them and the Latinkon you might quickly find yourself in trouble.

[Omar]

The problem we are running into is that Crusaders totally lack any skirmishers. The only units in the list worth taking are super expensive. So, could cut down on allies, but it means loosing 2-3 BGs for a single Crusader BG.

I was under the impression that the allies are to be (basically) a knight deliver system.