Why do the combat results in this game suck so much?

[stan23]

I want to like this game, I really do. But I can't get past the relentless monotony of the combat results. They are always the same with this game!
You can count on the enemy suffering the following combat results almost as if by formula.
About 50% it's 0.
About 40% it's -1.
About 10% it's -2.
What gives? As far as I can tell the chaotic randomness of combat is not represented well in this game at all.
Am I missing something? Is there a workaround I don't know about? Perhaps I am playing wrong!
I can probably get used to the other idiosyncrasies of this game like the overly harsh supply rules and Artillery not being a fire support unit (I mean, really? I was in the Army-It's the main One)
But this combat result stuff is killing me!
So if you read this little rant and have helpful suggestions I would love to hear from you, BUT if your replies are nothing but "OoB is the greatest game of all time and because you don't like what I like you're a d**k" stuff, spare me.
Just FYI, I own Blitzkrieg and Panzerkrieg and am a longtime Panzer Corps player.

[Andy2012]

Yes, OoB does take some time getting used to. I transitioned from Panzercorps, too.
To get better attack results, use arty preparation. Let engineers attack first. Also, in Panzercorps, you need to destroy units fully. OoB is more about crippling their efficiency. Imagine being shellshocked, exhausted and starved because you are cut from supply lines and have no ammo - you're not storming anything then, right? Aim for enemy efficiency loss and lower their unit cohesion. Not necessarily total annihilation.
If you need help, just ask.

[bru888]

Am I missing something?

Stan, try this option which appears on the scenario start up screen:

Screenshot 1.png (150.2 KiB) Viewed 4620 times

Your next question may be "That's fine for scenarios. What if you are playing a campaign? I don't see that option when I start a campaign" and I don't have the answer to that one. I have wondered about it myself.

What may work is to go to start a scenario, set it for Combat Randomising, and leave it that way. If it is sticky, then maybe it stays in effect for the scenarios of a campaign that you subsequently play.

Any OOB veteran out there who can comment further on this is invited to do so.

[stan23]

Yes exactly. I'm into campaigns and the lack of this feature is just crazy.
BTW your scenario editor was a big help.

[13obo]

Another thing you should probably know (which took me some time to figure) is that strength and efficiency are displayed as whole number but are stored as fractions. A unit that seems at 9 strength may be at 8.50-9.49 (I'm assuming this rounding rule as I don't think it's explained anywhere actually).

It's same for the combat results in that a unit which seemingly loses 1 strength (from 9 to 8 ), could've lost anywhere from 0.01 (8.50 to 8.49) to 2.49 (9.49 to 7.50) points of strength. These are extreme examples but you get the point.

[bru888]

Yes exactly. I'm into campaigns and the lack of this feature is just crazy.
BTW your scenario editor was a big help.

Try that work around; make sure when you go to play an individual scenario, it's set for Combat Randomising. Like I said, maybe it "sticks" for campaign play.

You mean my scenario editor manual? If so, thanks. There was a need and I tried. By the way, I have a list of updates but I am waiting for the next DLC and patch to see what they do to the editor.

[bru888]

Another thing you should probably know (which took me some time to figure) is that strength and efficiency are displayed as whole number but are stored as fractions. A unit that seems at 9 strength may be at 8.50-9.49 (I'm assuming this rounding rule as I don't think it's explained anywhere actually).

It's same for the combat results in that a unit which seemingly loses 1 strength (from 9 to , could've lost anywhere from 0.01 (8.50 to 8.49) to 2.49 (9.49 to 7.50) points of strength. These are extreme examples but you get the point.

That's a great point, 13obo. When Stan says:
About 50% it's 0.
About 40% it's -1.
About 10% it's -2.
He could be looking at whole numbers but the actual results are actually in fractions.

[13obo]

Yes, there's a lot more randomness embedded that seems on the surface.

[stan23]

I'm beginning to think finesse is more important than brute strength in OoB vs PC, but 'fractions' ?

Bru. Yep, your manual. Keep up the good work helpin' us Noobs.

BTW is there a surrender option?

[Erik2]

There's a list of 'cheat' codes in the first post in this thread.
Both instant win and defeat is in there.

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 64&t=64128

[jakemon]

When Stan says:
About 50% it's 0.
About 40% it's -1.
About 10% it's -2.

I'm not seeing this. Folks have already commented on softening attacks to reduce efficiency. There's also the flanking support bonus, unit types (e.g. inf versus at/aa/arty), experience delta, and terrain advantages to boost hit rates.

The biggest factor increasing the per attack reduction of an enemy's strength points is targeting repetitive attacks against the same victim. This goes hand in glove with efficiency reduction. I've always thought the ability to move-> attack-> gauge the results, move the next unit-> attack-> gauge the results, etc was a step away from reality (but there's nothing wrong with beer & pretzels in a guy's diet). In contrast WEGO systems where all moves & attacks are plotted, then simultaneously resolved, seem to effect a more historical simulation.

In OOB, I'm paying more attention to the difference between my losses and the AI losses. I agree with Stan defensive artillery fire would be an interesting addition to OOB.

[Mojko]

I want to like this game, I really do. But I can't get past the relentless monotony of the combat results. They are always the same with this game!
You can count on the enemy suffering the following combat results almost as if by formula.
About 50% it's 0.
About 40% it's -1.
About 10% it's -2.
What gives? As far as I can tell the chaotic randomness of combat is not represented well in this game at all.
Am I missing something? Is there a workaround I don't know about? Perhaps I am playing wrong!
I can probably get used to the other idiosyncrasies of this game like the overly harsh supply rules and Artillery not being a fire support unit (I mean, really? I was in the Army-It's the main One)
But this combat result stuff is killing me!
So if you read this little rant and have helpful suggestions I would love to hear from you, BUT if your replies are nothing but "OoB is the greatest game of all time and because you don't like what I like you're a d**k" stuff, spare me.
Just FYI, I own Blitzkrieg and Panzerkrieg and am a longtime Panzer Corps player.

I'm also a veteran Panzer Korps player and now a veteran OOB player as well. I am ashamed to admit that when I first picked up OOB I got so frustrated with the game mechanics that I dropped the game. I picked it up only a month later and I'm so happy I did. OOB is definitely better than PzK in game mechanics, but the game does a very poor job at explaining them.

Artillery is already super powerful in this game, it has been nerfed / rebalanced several times and it's finally balanced I think. You definitely don't want support fire on artillery, trust me. There is one whole thread about OOB vs PzK and my general recommendation is FORGET all you know about PzK mechanics and start from scratch. If you will play OOB like PzK you will actually be doing MUCH worse than not knowing anything at all. Please visit this thread for further reading on this topic.

[Andy2012]

I'm beginning to think finesse is more important than brute strength in OoB vs PC, but 'fractions' ?

Bru. Yep, your manual. Keep up the good work helpin' us Noobs.

BTW is there a surrender option?

Please tell us if you made any progress and starting to get a hang of things. Takes some time. Save every turn separately, quicksave often. Helped me.

[PoorOldSpike]

I want to like this game, I really do. But I can't get past the relentless monotony of the combat results. They are always the same with this game!..

Sorry mate but I'm not seeing that, or have I misunderstood your comment?
Look, here's a test I just ran in the editor, I lined up 10x US Inf vs 10x German Inf,and before any shooting starts they're all at full strength (10), and the predicted combat result is 2+ 2+ all along the line-




And this second pic is after several turns of combat after every US unit has been firing at the German unit north of it (and the Germans have been returning fire of course); notice that the strengths have now dropped to 2/3/4/5 because of the randomness factor, and the original 2+ 2+ predictions have changed too, so I don't know why you say the results are always the same?

[bru888]

Nice going, Spike.

[13obo]

I think the OPs point was that compared to PzC, combat odds in OOB are a lot more predictable and damage to units is a lot smaller.

In PzC, given favourable suppression, and proper "overstrength" of units, you can destroy a unit completely with only 1 attack. It happens rarely, but it does. Wiping a unit stack with 2 attacks is completely normal. On the other hand, there's something called "rugged defence", which can lead to very unpredictable situations and spoil your planned attacks.

You don't see this in OOB because it's a different game with different mechanics that focuses more on strategic outmanoeuvring and efficient use of supplies as bru initially explained. Initially, it frustrated me as I was used to the PzC rules, but now I like it more as the game flows more naturally and you don't get your units killed off due to a sudden attack out of the blue or a string of bad luck that happens in PzC due to the randomness.

[PoorOldSpike]

I can probably get used to the other idiosyncrasies of this game like the overly harsh supply rules and Artillery not being a fire support unit (I mean, really? I was in the Army-It's the main One)...I am a longtime Panzer Corps player.

I'm a Panzer Corps player too and I'm still trying to decide if I like it or OOB best, because each game has some features that I like or don't like..
1- You say OOB's supply rules are "overly harsh", whereas I love 'em to bits, they're surely far superior to Pz Corps?
2- Regarding automatic artillery fire support, I feel it's too strong in Pz Corps, because In real life an arty unit can't support every single unit that's under attack right down the line. On the other hand, OOB has no fire support at all so I agree with you that it's lacking in OOB.
A compromise solution would be for an OOB update or patch to be released that gives an arty unit the ability to support just ONE unit per turn.

PS- Here's a shot that illustrates why I like OOB's realistic supply rules; I was too gung-ho with my 3 panzers and pushed them too deep into the Russki hinterland (along the photoshopped blue arrow), but the AI Russkis have yelled "NYET!" and have counter-attacked to cut the panzers supply line by advancing along the red arrow.
That realistic feature can't happen in Pz Corps because it has no supply lines as such, you can only degrade a units supply by getting adjacent to it.

[13obo]

I think the current system of support from AT and AA, but not artillery is brilliant. It requires the player to balance their infantry/tank core even further apart from CP/RP consoderations. Infantry is no longer useless filler and tanks unstoppable steam engines.

If you think about it long and hard, the biggest "flaws" of OOB are that it came after PzC, and that it's 3D...

[Andy2012]

If you think about it long and hard, the biggest "flaws" of OOB is that it came after PzC, and that it's 3D...

Well put. This is a sometimes fickle customer base that needs to be won over slowly. Very slowly.

[stan23]

Hey Everybody. Wow, lots of good comments
I'm still digesting them all and reading the recommended threads, but several things stick out that it seems are majority opinions.
-Lot's of people think the lack of Arty support is weird.
-No undo button, very annoying.
-No surrender option.
But, I must say this game has its appeal. I have actually uninstalled/reinstalled twice and bought Panzerkrieg before finishing even half of Blitzkrieg.
I really want to like this game but I'm still trying to figure it out.