allies and List element max's

[nigelemsen]

Hi,

Wondering on the element mins - maxs for a troop type and how are they affected by an allied from completely different list.

Example:

Parthians are allowed 6-18 Parthians Cataphracts. However they are allowed Armenian Allies, which gives a possible another 4 Cataphract elements.

The question is if you take the Armenian (different nationality) Can you have potentianlly 22 Cataphracts?

Thanks
Nigel

[ars_belli]

Allied troops are deducted from the minima and maxima given on the main list. So adding Armenian allied cataphracts will not give you more than the maximum number of bases allowed for the Parthian list.

Cheers,
Scott

[nigelemsen]

ok, accepting that.. How is that reflected with say Mid Rep Roman and Spanish Allies? Would a clairifaction be the max is for the that troop type when given in the "CinC"'s list otherwise the max of the "allied list" takes presendance?

[daleivan]

I was under the impression that allied troops purchased are not deducted from an army's maxima unless the list specifically noted it.

I'm thinking of Parthians in particular--there was a discussion thread a while back about which army could have the most cataphracts. Several folks mentioned Parthians, if you purchased allied contigents. Otherwise, what would the point be of being able to purchase allied cataphracts and horse archers BGs for the Parthians if they counted against the main list's maxima?

(Other than a cheaper allied commander to oversee the allied contingent.)



Cheers,

Dale

[BillMc]

My understanding is that they would not count against the minima/maxima of the main list. They would however be under the Allied Commander's command and control and could not gain benefit from other commanders in the army. So, you would need to be able to track them as part of the allied contingent.

[BrianC]

Since I use Mid Republican Romans I always assumed that when and if you chose to use the Mid Republican Roman allies list that you get up to 4 cavalry in the allied army. So you would have your core Roman army with 2 BGs of cavalry and 1 alllid with 1 BG of cavalry. Same if you choose Spanish allies, would you not build your core army from the Mid Roman army list, then build an allied army from the Spanish list? I don't understand why the Spanish should be restricted to the Roman maxima. If this is true can someone give a page reference that explains this?

Thanks

Brian

[ars_belli]

In checking the lists upon my return home from work, I think that Dale and Bill absolutely correct. Allies do not deduct from the minima and maxima unless specified in the special notes for the army.

Since there are no special notes saying otherwise in the Parthian list, then Armenian allies could indeed provide additional cataphracts to the army. A good lesson for me in giving advice without having all the facts at hand.

Cheers,
Scott

[babyshark]

In checking the lists upon my return home from work, I think that Dale and Bill absolutely correct. Allies do not deduct from the minima and maxima unless specified in the special notes for the army.

Since there are no special notes saying otherwise in the Parthian list, then Armenian allies could indeed provide additional cataphracts to the army. A good lesson for me in giving advice without having all the facts at hand.

Cheers,
Scott

Right. It's usually internal allies, rather than foreign ones, that count against the list's regular min/max.

Marc

[philqw78]

A Parthian list can quite legally have 36 cataphracts. 18 of its own, 6 Armenian, 6 Parthian Allied, (as it does not say that they are subtracted from the minimum and maximum of the main list), and 6 ctaphracts from the other ally I can't remember, Emesan maybe. You need a lot of points to do it though.

[daleivan]

A Parthian list can quite legally have 36 cataphracts. 18 of its own, 6 Armenian, 6 Parthian Allied, (as it does not say that they are subtracted from the minimum and maximum of the main list), and 6 ctaphracts from the other ally I can't remember, Emesan maybe. You need a lot of points to do it though.

You could actually pick up 8 cats from parthian or median allied, and another 6 from elymaian, and 4 more from either Hatran etc or Skythian/Saka. In theory you could have 40. As you say, expensive. I'll have to work up a list and see if it's possible at 800 points. I doubt out, given the required LH. Still fun to try

(Pause)

O.K. I tried. The best I could come up with with was 28 cataphracts and only 1 commander for the army, an FC. Not good

Looks like 24 may be a realistic up limit, assuming you want to have more than 1 commander for your army...

Cheers,

Dale

[nigelemsen]

cheers plenty of food for thought, 24 is such a nice round figuare . Shame my list for warfare is already in...

[philqw78]

Well I got 28 cats from Palmyran legally and used it at Roll call with 3 Generals

[Redpossum]

Well I got 28 cats from Palmyran legally and used it at Roll call with 3 Generals

And how did you fare with this army?

[philqw78]

how did you fare with this army?

Third. This part of the comp was limited to legions triumphant and armies in the list at the back. Main problem was LH. We couldn't do anything to each other in the time frame.