heavy chariots Vs light chariots

[marty]

I'm a long time lover of the chariot. In a recent discussion on here someone suggested chariots were no good and someone else replied that lights were excellent and heavies OK. This got the wheels turning as to the pros and cons of heavy and light chariots.

My personal feeling was that it was probably about even (I'm aware of all the advantages/disadvantages of been shock troops, the POA heavies sometimes get, the extra movement/manouverability of the lights, the lights ability to shoot backwards, etc). I could honestly say that if they were the same cost and a list gave me the choice between heavy and light I'm not sure the way I would go (it would in the end depend on the rest of the army and the equipment of the chariot).

Given all this I'm a bit unconvinced about the pricing of heavy chariots as 3 or 4 points more than lights. Given the list books that are out so far I imagine that most people have not yet played extensively with or against a range of different chariots. Is there anyone who has? if so what do they think?

Martin

[Phaze_of_the_Moon]

Even if they are overpriced in an absolute sense (there exists some other troop type that is more cost effective), there will be armies where they will be valuable. Which is to say that in period at least they will have prey.

[marty]

As I think about this further the Heavy Chariots seem like a particularly bad buy when bow armed. Like all mounted they buy bow at 3 points (pretty much the most expensive weapon capability in the game). Now normally this is fair enough, mounted bow is great. Not because it shoots more effectively but because the mounted can use their speed and manouverability to bring their shooting to bear more effectively They can also usually use their ability to evade to prolong the time they get to spend shooting.

Heavy chariots can do none of these things. They are as slow and unmanouverable as a foot archer, they cant evade and to make matters worse they are usually going to have to charge anyone in bow range (preventing them from shooting in that turn). To really cap it off they cant shoot from a second rank like other mounted archers. All this and they still pay the mounted premium for bow capability.

I accept the point that in some armies in historical match ups they may have a place (although even in these match ups they compare pretty unfavourably to the light chariots they will encounter). In open comp I suspect you are effectively paying the princely sum of 20 or so points for an element with very limited shooting capabilty that is going to have a very hard time finding opponents in the open who cant beat it (ie almost anyone with a lance, a pike or a longspear) or get away from it (anyone on a horse without a lance).

I hope I am wrong.

Martin

[maxigoth]

Buy and field Heavy Chariots from either Early Cathaginian or Late Dynastic Egyptian ---Bow armed and Drilled--- big investment of 22 per base 88 per unit. Throw in a Troop Commander with'em @ 35 point --- going for broke this is. Seek out a bunch of Protected Spearman or if your really game a buch of Phalangites. Shoot'em up as long as you can roll a CMT not to charge --- if your lucky get'em mad at you and see what might happen when they charge you. Heavy Chariots, as fare as I know to date, are the only shock troops (other than Highlanders) that can shoot.

The above might not result in a win, however, the possibility of the win in impact may be worth the overall cost.

Keep your line of battle strait (protect your Chariots base edge with some one like Defensive/Light Spears or Bow and trust that you roll 5 or more on the CMT not to charge.

Regards

[SirGarnet]

Heavy Chariots are like a weaker form of Knight in some ways. It's the shooting that makes them useful - shoot once. twice, or thrice as the distance to the enemy closes and enjoy their disruption or fragmentation as well as the HCH POA when you make contact. The Bow LCH are pretty nice too. But I'm by no means a chariot cheerleader - the Lt Spear LCH are why LCH disappeared on the battlefield.

[ethan]

The advantage of bows on heavy chariots is that you suddenly make them pretty dangerous to skirmish. Sure you can park some light horse in front trying to lead them away but suddenly have have 4 superior shooting dice plinging away and that makes that a much less attractive option.

[marty]

yes, but this is true of any archer unit and unlike virtually any other archer the chariots may well launch an involuntary charge against the skirmishers they are most unlikely to catch rather than take advantage of the bows they have spent so many points on.

Martin

[philqw78]

unlike virtually any other archer the chariots may well launch an involuntary charge

Unlike almost all the Byzantine Cavalry from the Decline and Fall book?

[marty]

I did say "virtually"

I dont consider most of the byzantine cav a good buy either out of period, but thats a seperate issue (and I dont own a Byzantine army).

I dont have a problem with how chariots perform under the rules (I have no doubt people stopped using them for a reason) just the points cost of the heavy variety. Regardless of how effective they end up been (and we wont really know till we see the armies they are part of in the biblical and oriental lists) I will use them anyway. They look great and I find the whole idea of them intriguing.

Martin

[philqw78]

Yes, the Byzantines look pretty as well and thats where it ends. 1 shot, 2 if you are lucky, and then charge to your death against the Arab spears.

[dave_r]

Aren't the majority of the Arab spears protected though?

This means that you are disadvantaged at impact and evens at melee? i.e. the Same as Cataphracts?

[rbodleyscott]

Yes, the Byzantines look pretty as well and thats where it ends. 1 shot, 2 if you are lucky, and then charge to your death against the Arab spears.

So don't move them into charge range in front of Arab spears?

All troops are bad against their bad matchups.

[philqw78]

To shoot they must move to within charge reach of something, they can then test not to charge or charge. If they test not to some will and then be picked off in detail. Even worse if the opposition move to 5MU in their turn, there is then a good chance that the Byzantine cavalry will not shoot at all. Its a lot of points for something with only slightly more chance of shooting than an incendiary pig herder. I'm not saying that its unrealistic, its just expensive.

So don't move them into charge range in front of Arab spears?

All troops are bad against their bad matchups.

I thought this was their historical match up?

[rbodleyscott]

So don't move them into charge range in front of Arab spears?

All troops are bad against their bad matchups.

I thought this was their historical match up?

I would expect them to derive more profit from charging the Muslim cavalry. Charging steady heavy infantry spearmen frontally with cavalry has never historically been a good bet.

[philqw78]

derive more profit from charging the Muslim cavalry.

Yes it is a game of manouver, and Cav should not charge steady Spears. But the bows carried by the Byzantines have even less chance of being used against a player using the arab lancers as they can more easily move to 5MU, therefore precluding the Byzantines firing unless they want to risk a BG charging in by itself.

More in line with the thread of this, at least the HCh are guaranteed a single round of shooting as their target must be in mounted bow range when it reaches charge range of the chariots. Cavalry unfortunately charge further than their shooting range.

[nikgaukroger]

derive more profit from charging the Muslim cavalry.

Yes it is a game of manouver, and Cav should not charge steady Spears. But the bows carried by the Byzantines have even less chance of being used against a player using the arab lancers as they can more easily move to 5MU, therefore precluding the Byzantines firing unless they want to risk a BG charging in by itself.

It is worth remembering that the archers in Byzantine formations were the secondary support troops with the lancers being expected to do the real work. It is wrong to view them as some sort of horse archer army and the classifications are based on that view and so should your tactics with the army.

[philqw78]

I'm not complaining because it doesn't work correctly, I'm complaining because they make very expensive lancers. And I like complaining

[rbodleyscott]

I'm not complaining because it doesn't work correctly, I'm complaining because they make very expensive lancers.

They cost less than 12% extra for some (limited) extra functionality compared with normal lancers. Not too bad a deal IMO.

Cv Bw*, LSpear, Sword get more benefit from the Bow* than they do, because they are not shock troops, but we did not want to have 2 different prices for Bow* depending on what else they were armed with.

Points systems inevitably involve some compromise in order to maintain an acceptable level of complexity.

Minimaxers can have fun shaving the margins to use only the most cost-effective troops. The rest can use the armies they like and accept that they might not be 100% minimaxed.

[daleivan]

Minimaxers can have fun shaving the margins to use only the most cost-effective troops. The rest can use the armies they like and accept that they might not be 100% minimaxed.

Very good advice as far as I am concerned

That's exactly what I do--use the armies I enjoy playing and not worry about being 100% minmaxed.
It's about playing armies and troop types you enjoy (impact foot, for instance

As they say, YMMV

Dale

[marty]

so back to the original topic, has anyone actually played much with (or against) a variety of chariots? What do they think of the virtues of heavies

Martin