Panzerkrieg - 01 Rzhev Salient v5.2.9 bug

[GabeKnight]

"01_Rzhev/ Rzhev Salient" v.5.2.9/64bit

Seriously? After more than two months?

I've been wondering, why the "Allow battered veterans to regroup" secondary objective didn't check after turn 9-10 (my units were both full strenght by then), so I took a quick glance at the objective triggers, after max. 5 min it was absolutely clear to me, that the obj. would NEVER check "Complete". [EDIT: parts removed]. So I've tested it after saving at turn 13, before the "Early Victory - Major" trigger.
And that's not all of it: In the initial briefing you mention "Rhzev and Vyazma" and others - but how the hell am I supposed to know where these towns are? And how to plan my deployment then?

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And there are other things as well.... but to be honest, I'm not willing to do my usual reports for official stuff. I've payed for this and I want to enjoy it.
Moreover I'm frustrated to have been "forced" to look into the editor at my first playthrough....Sigh...

The AI-setup triggers were fun, and I liked playing the mission overall. The scenario as such played okay, good balance
(It' always good balance if I'm not able to kill every single enemy unit on the map within turn limits )

And by now, I'm not even angry anymore... but someone should really introduce a new Smilie into this forum, something like "to bow one's head and head-shaking"

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PS: Could someone move this to "Tech Support" sub-forum please. Sorry.

[bebro]

And that's not all of it: In the initial briefing you mention "Rhzev and Vyazma" and others - but how the hell am I supposed to know where these towns are? And how to plan my deployment then?

Pls look at the pic attached - if city labels are turned on in options you do get them, but only on unoccupied/or in FOG hexes. Rzhev is occupied, so both the unit and city labels would interfere.

If you mark the Rzhev city hex by mouse (the white marker) you get a description incl. the name in the lower GUI area. Sure, this would require you to know where it is beforehand, but it is a major objective (gold flag) and there are only a couple of those on the map.

As for the objective: We can add a green checkmark, but you do not lose or win anything. The only thing this does is to give the player a choice of either waiting until those 2 units are reinforced for free (so they can't assist you in combat early on) or use them at will early, but then having to invest your own RP for them.

[GabeKnight]

Pls look at the pic attached - if city labels are turned on in options you do get them, but only on unoccupied/or in FOG hexes. Rzhev is occupied, so both the unit and city labels would interfere.

Yeah, but please look at the left part (with the red circle) of my screenshot then, and there are NO units deployed during the initial briefing on Rzhev and Burgovo (and the "location names" are activated in my settings...)
I've imported my core from Blitzkrieg, and these hexes are probably reserved for the "default core" config or something, I don't know, but some of the labels DO NOT appear at scenario start even without units on them. Important labels.

As for the objective: We can add a green checkmark, but you do not lose or win anything.

Yeah, I do know that NOW, but from a player's perspective it was an objective required for a "Major Victory" condition and possibly other rewards to come through a Campaign variable. These units could have supported my frontline a lot sooner (they are fully repaired by turn 7), if I didn't wait for the objective to "check" to no avail. How was I supposed to know that this was one of those missions in which completing objectives wouldn't matter obviously?

But it's okay now.... as a fan of OoB, I tend to get my hopes up too much sometimes...I may have been a bit agitated (with the feeling of being let down) and probably over-reacted about (in the end) unimportant small things. I'll just play and try to shut up.

[Horst]

Gabe, there are no minor or major victories in the vanilla campaigns, only Defeat or Victory, but who doesn't like to grab all secondary goodies even if it's just for the challenge? Different campaign branches don't exist there with the only(?) exception in Morning Sun.
If you aim for more challenge and unit experience, not getting certain secondary objectives, like reducing enemy pilot experience or less AI units during campaigns, is maybe better.

I remember the report of terminator lately when units are removed by triggers and labels don’t show up anymore. Maybe this is similar like with the default core units if they are removed for own core ones.

How did you fix the objective?
I’ve added a single Turn Start event:
Check Turn > 0
Check Unit(s) Strength, StuG III D, Amount = 10
Check Unit(s) Strength, German Heavy Infantry ‘41, Amount = 10
Set Objective State, Secondary, Allow battered veterans to regroup, Completed

This way, you can reinforce them anytime with your own RPs and don’t bother to stay there. Only a full recovery should matter. Checking for unit experience isn’t possible anyway if you do green repairs.
Making the objective fail is a bit complicated with two units and strength, so letting it open should do the job as well. The objective doesn’t say anything that these units have to stay alive either.

[GabeKnight]

If you aim for more challenge and unit experience, not getting certain secondary objectives, like reducing enemy pilot experience or less AI units during campaigns, is maybe better.

My logic hears you, but my ego won't accept voluntary failure...

How did you fix the objective?

I didn't yet, 'cause as both of you pointed out, it doesn't matter for the campaign progress and for it to work I would need to restart the mission.

The way this mechanic is set up, your units don't have to stay there all the time anyways. It would suffice if they returned between turns 6-9 for the heavy inf. and turns 7-11 for the Stug to be repaired to full from whatever condition they are in at that moment.

Your solution sounds about right, but I wouldn't want to alter the original intention of the objective, to withhold these two units for player's use for the initial turns. Haven't thought this through, but I'd probably use this:

Check Turn > 6
Check Unit(s) Strength, StuG III D, Amount > 9
Check Unit(s) Strength, German Heavy Infantry ‘41, Amount > 9
Check (both) Units Near Hex [Vyazma]
Set Objective State, Secondary, Allow battered veterans to regroup, Completed

Making the objective fail is a bit complicated with two units and strength, so letting it open should do the job as well. The objective doesn’t say anything that these units have to stay alive either.

Agreed. I have no problem with open=fail!

[Horst]

Yep, this objective rather looks like a toyish feature than a regular challenge. Forcing the player to let both units stick around at the zone is better, no matter if own RP are spent or not. It gives the impression that recovery also includes some leave from the front

[bebro]

As for the labels, all I can say I never had any missing as long they're switched on in options and aren't occupied. Did you just apply the last patch shortly before? Maybe that did reset your settings. If they are indeed sometimes visible and sometimes not - even when *on* - that would certainly not be WAD.

I've imported my core from Blitzkrieg, and these hexes are probably reserved for the "default core" config or something,

If that is the case it probably checks whether to draw labels or not before the standard core units are removed (so counts Rzhev as occupied = no label) - it's not a bug per se IMO, rather a shortcoming. I talk to Ad about it, but I don't know if there is a quick change on the horizon.

[Horst]

Similar problem like here maybe?
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 72&t=82798

[GabeKnight]

Did you just apply the last patch shortly before?

Yes.

Maybe that did reset your settings

Nope.

... it probably checks whether to draw labels or not before the standard core units are removed (so counts Rzhev as occupied = no label)

Better. You're getting warm...

I talk to Ad about it

Thanks.

... but I don't know if there is a quick change on the horizon.

...as always....

[Shards]

My guess is that it is indeed related to Terminators bug. I've put it on the list

[GabeKnight]

It seems to be possible after all...
Next time I'll be rather playing as the Romanians, right?
(04_Sevastopol, initial briefing, Ridne)

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[PoorOldSpike]

"01_Rzhev/ Rzhev Salient" v.5.2.9/64bit
...initial briefing... "Rhzev and Vyazma" and others.. how the hell am I supposed to know where these towns are? And how to plan my deployment then?

I don't know if you know mate, but you can bring up the screen below before the start of Rzhev (and with all other scens) and click the blue question marks and hit 'next' to make the map scroll-cycle through the objs. You can also bring up the screen during play to keep reminding yourself where they are..
(But having said that I wish OOB had a feature to toggle place names on and off to make life a bit easier for us all).

Personally my main beef with Rzhev at the moment is that I can't figure out the main victory condits, I sat down to play it the other day but soon gave up because I felt like I was playing in the dark. I mean, it's absolutely vital that we know the VC's in any game.
Can anybody explain the top two Rzhev's VC's to me please?
You see, the top one says 'Hold at least 3 Primaries', but the second one says 'Control ALL...".
So what does the game want us to do, hold just 3, or hold all 4 ?

[13obo]

Time and time people complain of the victory conditions of this scenario. Obviously it's opaque but devs refuse to change or reword them. It's also the first scenario of the DLC, which is free, and should be persuading the customer to buy the game. Well all these posts on the same thing should definitely show you by now that customers are confused by the objectives and possibly put off a purchase.

[bebro]

Personally my main beef with Rzhev at the moment is that I can't figure out the main victory condits, I sat down to play it the other day but soon gave up because I felt like I was playing in the dark. I mean, it's absolutely vital that we know the VC's in any game.
Can anybody explain the top two Rzhev's VC's to me please?
You see, the top one says 'Hold at least 3 Primaries', but the second one says 'Control ALL...".
So what does the game want us to do, hold just 3, or hold all 4 ?

You need to hold 3 primary objectives, meaning you can never lose more than one at any point during this scenario. You are also required to control all 4 primary hexes at the end.

So if you lost one it's possible to retake it and still win, but losing more than one will give you a loss whether you retake them or not, as it collides with the "hold 3" objective.

In short, you win by either holding 4 primary flags all the time or by holding 4 in the end when you only lost one temporarily before.

[PoorOldSpike]

[re Rzhev Salient]..You need to hold 3 primary objectives, meaning you can never lose more than one at any point during this scenario. You are also required to control all 4 primary hexes at the end.
So if you lost one it's possible to retake it and still win, but losing more than one will give you a loss whether you retake them or not, as it collides with the "hold 3" objective.
In short, you win by either holding 4 primary flags all the time or by holding 4 in the end when you only lost one temporarily before.

Thanks mate, that clarifies things nicely, I just played it (v.5.3.0, Level 3 difficulty, Custom force option) and got a win (below), possibly because I only went for the Primaries and left my encircled units hanging out to dry..
My compliments to whoever designed the scen, it's certainly one of the best scens I've ever seen in any wargame because there's so much going on all over the map and experienced gamers will have to use every bit of their skill to hold off the Russkis.
Newcomer warning- better not play it til you're thoroughly familiar with the game, because if you make the slightest slip you're toast.

PS- Just a couple of trivial things that puzzled me-
1- The topmost primary vict condition which reads "Hold at least 3 Primary VP", always had the numbers 4/2 on the right throughout the entire game, they never changed and always stayed at 4/2, what do they mean?
2- I couldn't figger out what the "Allow battered veterans to regroup" secondary vict condit meant. I simply allocated rep pts to bring them up to full strength in the normal way, then used them in combat; the Stug in particular was very useful, but the question mark stayed blue.

[Halvralf]

[re Rzhev Salient].
2- I couldn't figger out what the "Allow battered veterans to regroup" secondary vict condit meant. I simply allocated rep pts to bring them up to full strength in the normal way, then used them in combat; the Stug in particular was very useful, but the question mark stayed blue.

If you don't move the veterans they will regain strength without the player having to reinforce them aka saving a few bucks. On the other hand one might want to use them asap and then the player can reinforce them and move them. Whatever the player chooses to do the ? will stay to the end as there is no reward afterwards for completing the objective. The reward CAN be that you ge free reinforcement in game on them.

It is a lovely scenario but the objective description might need an overhaul!

[PoorOldSpike]

Yes it's a great scenario but the vict condition wording needs tidying up.
Meanwhile this map might help players to see what they've got to do; the red line is the front line at the start of the game, and the Germans start in possession of the 4 yellow primaries and must still be holding them at the end of the game. You can afford to lose 1 (and only 1) during play like Bebro said, but you MUST recapture it before the end if I understand him correctly.
The whites are the other 2 prims, the Germans have to go on the offensive to capture them.
That makes a total of 6 prims that jerry has to own at the end to get a win.

[Shards]

Van Gogh eat yer heart out!