New Hard scenario for Bataan Map (old thread)

[lt1956_slith]

Hello,

I don't know if anyone else agrees, but I felt really let down with the Bataan Map, The map was good, but it wasn't that hard, I even was forced to play at the hardest level and even then I was holding my own. I wanted to have a nail biting in your face battle for the map, doing justice to the men who fought there as best as can be done in game.

I am currently working on this project and plan to very soon to release a new and improved version. What these changes will do is make the overall map harder on normal levels and maybe impossible on Higher levels. The original Map had some errors which required more units which were not needed, there were many things I needed to learn about the editor and the AI/Triggers of this map in order to keep the balance between the two sides. I "think" knock of wood that I have found the right balance of realism and balance that should make the map Harder but not over the top. The last posts will show the changes which are completely different from my original release. I am currently play-testing this new version to see if I have found the right balance, I now dream about the game map, help!

But all of this work will provide and unique view on the map and hopefully have the effect I desire.

[GabeKnight]

Hi lt,
thanks for sharing this. You're right, it's much harder than the original mission, but still... played at middle difficulty as single scenario and with about 2-3 turns more, I would have wiped out every single Jap. unit on that map, except the destroyer and some bunkers. There was just a single Jap. inf. unit near my fortress, so I wasn't even able to fulfill that objective. The fighter was very useful and dealt moderate damage to the enemy's planes. The RP's were plenty (if just defending). The heavy undersupply of the Japanese from the start helped a lot. You should, however, adjust the obj. texts, events, triggers and popups to the modified turn limits. Nice and challenging nonetheless.

Screenshot 115.jpg (383.75 KiB) Viewed 2641 times

[lt1956_slith]

Hello Gabriel,

Thanks for the feedback

Yes I found my mistake earlier today before your post, I noticed I didn't have enough supply (I was play-testing today). I have adjusted the map and found that the AI is performing more aggressive as I intended.

[lt1956_slith]

Gabriel,

I already have made another version2 adjusting the time of certain Objectives to match the new timeline. But first I wanted to see how version 1 plays out for you with the AI changes. If everything is good and plays well then I can release the final version. But obviously I would rather wait and see your feedback. I think the map plays well, you can hold the line for a while, but eventually they do seem to break through enough to retreat. I am not sure how you're playing these maps, I never tried to Blitz to take their cities as technically it would have been impossible for them in Real life. Personally the Perfect version would be one that would NOT allow you to pick your unit and you have to save them as if you lose them they are gone. Problem is that wouldn't work good with the Campaign. Let me know if you think there are too many Philippine recruits, historically my understanding is they were the majority of the units in 1941 army.

[GabeKnight]

Actually, I didn't use no Blitzkrieg tactics with this one, more the Winter War tactics . Maybe I could've used a bold move to capture the enemy's supply-hexes early on, but it seemed too risky with that many Jap. units around, even undersupplied. And I'd remember spawning reinforcement waves for the Jap. being scripted at multiple turns, so I couldn't risk my advancing units to be surrounded by fresh enemy troops arriving out of nowhere at some point.

Instead, I held my ground at the advantageous river banks and let the Jap. units mostly damage themselves trying to penetrate my defenses. Always trying to NOT kill them off, so they'd stay undersupplied. But at some point the tanks went quite suicidal and were destroyed (with initial 10HP!) by AT support on the spot, or 1HP "Banzai" units trying to attack 10HP entrenched infantry units . On the other hand, even this strategy would've NEVER worked with Japanese arty and armour units at 100% efficiency, as it was a calculated "gamble" from the beginning anyways, meaning that if at any point my defenses would have been broken, I'd be overrun and lost completely, I guess.

I don't mind hard scenarios at all, and you kind of got me with your assumptions about your modifications, so I've downloaded and played. I liked some of your ideas (the foxhole placement was excellent), and it's always great to see new players being interested in the editor....BUT.... just adding a ton of new units to an existing and balanced scenario doesn't make it that interesting to replay in my opinion - sorry to say. Maybe someone who doesn't know the maps by heart will be more interested in playing this scenario.

But didn't you do the WSS emblem stuff? How about creating a completely new map and mission instead, as you seem to be artistically apt? I'd rather playtest that, to be honest. Sorry.

Don't worry about mistakes, it's always learning-by-doing! Keep up the good work and I'd really be interested playing any new scenarios from you! Thanks.

[removed by request]

[lt1956_slith]

Hello Gabriel,

Here is a picture of the new map I am working on, you can see the difference on units etc. Mainly what I want to do with this map is add some difficulty to the Normal level, so if a person wants a real beating they can play on Very HARD. My first attempt was based on the Supply being limited which caused me adding more units to compensate for the lack of attack strength. Once that was fixed everything kicked in, also my finding the Spawning for the game in the triggers.

Just to let you know, if you NEVER fall back those spawns never happen in the vanilla game. Its assuming you are pulling back before add more units. So its wave effect. On the New Map, as you can see are less Initial units but some added especially a little more air cover and a few extra units to compensate for the extra Bunkers etc. The air is to help with the P40 half squad the player gets. Now that I understand what is going on behind the scenes allow me to make more tailored adjustments. Example is Invasion is more of problem, all events are now spaced out to match a 40 turn limit. The player has a few choices now on Defense, either reinforce the Front lines and hold solid there, or place units in other areas for a fallback when the front lines fail.

My only goal was to make the map harder and more realistic for the Campaign. Bataan was bitterly fought for before the surrender and the player should feel Pushed or almost overrun before the end, the whole idea of the map was suppose to be Surviving by falling back, if the player can hold the front line with ease then the map is NOT BALANCED. Personally I do NOT feel the original was balanced. The player placing the correct amount of units and "type" can hold the front line well over 15+ turns of the 25 original turns.

Something also to remember on this map of the sparse few units you see on the original is that about 20% of those units are IDLE defensive units only that NEVER engage the player. So if one can hold the front line the other units will never spawn as its based off the Japs owning a certain area. I think some of the unit numbers is because of peoples PC's and not game-play reasons. This was their first DLC and most of the maps are not as large or crowded as some of the later map are. I removed the old Versions as I decided to start over from scratch, there are a lot of little AI tweaks and Triggers I needed to change to allow the Same Wave attacks for the longer 40 turn timeline. Only thing I am not sure of is if 40 turns is enough. I also allowed support for the AI invasion so its no longer easy to cheat and block the Ships and easily sink them. There were MANY exploits one could do on this map that really defeat the purpose of it.

I am sure like myself you found colorful ways to exploit certain weaknesses of the AI?

[GabeKnight]

With balance... it's always difficult to please everyone. There are enough official maps out there, I completely agree with you, that by now, I'd love to add more units to reflect my actual game style and my definition of "hard". On the other hand I recall playing the Bataan scenarios in my "early days" and they've put quite a strain on me, always scarce on RP, my core units being fairly damaged and so on. Didn't feel like "a walk in the park" by then...

Just to let you know, if you NEVER fall back those spawns never happen in the vanilla game. Its assuming you are pulling back before add more units.

Well, this is true for about 50% of the reinforcement actually, just some of the spawns are limited to the Jap. advance and them taking sec. VP

Something also to remember on this map of the sparse few units you see on the original is that about 20% of those units are IDLE defensive units only that NEVER engage the player.

The FIVE northernmost units defending (static defense) the main supply hexes (and the bunkers ) are perfectly okay IMO and should stay that way.

I also allowed support for the AI invasion so its no longer easy to cheat and block the Ships and easily sink them. There were MANY exploits one could do on this map that really defeat the purpose of it. I am sure like myself you found colorful ways to exploit certain weaknesses of the AI?

True, the additional Jap. DD made my PT boats quite unusable. On the other hand it was you, that provided a new exploit, by using my fighter plane to sink the supply ships quite fast and thus rendering the whole Jap. invasion forces useless - all that was needed after that was one Phil. inf. and with the help of the foxholes they took the weakend invaders out with ease...

And don't forget that you're actually the "author" of the scripts the AI units are following. You can always "help" the AI in certain difficult situation (to a degree, of course) with adequate triggers and events at the right moment.

[lt1956_slith]

Hello Gabriel,

I left the Idle units, In fact I changed nothing on the original units. I did adjust the triggers and added some minor changes to have the game more challenging. One thing I noticed is the AI does not replenish units effectively like the player does. I caught the AI moving a unit then replenishing which only gave 2 points, and then a lot of them sitting there with low strength. So like most games the AI has difficulty in replenishing its forces.

I did notice the original had multiple spawns, which means they really cheated in what the show the player in the preview. If you take all the units they have spawned it would look like my original version. lol

I think you will like this version, I adjusted the original to spice it up, make a little harder. So if we play on Very Hard we will be punished bad.

The P40 used for that is interesting, I Found I lost him against the Air attack, sometimes luck is a factor. He helps, but Unless you hide him he probably wont survive in the new version. The developers made a nice map of Bataan, but it was sparse and felt underdeveloped to me. I am hoping this revised version will be more fun to play, which I plan on adding to my official campaign folder.

P.S. I think the new version invasion will fix that Exploit of the plane by accident really.

Thanks for the feedback its helped me make a better map.

[GabeKnight]

I caught the AI moving a unit then replenishing which only gave 2 points, and then a lot of them sitting there with low strength. So like most games the AI has difficulty in replenishing its forces.

It will repair if you give the AI more RPs (at the beginning or per turn)! It has the same limits a human player has in that respect.

[GabeKnight]

Hi LT,

thank you for your PM. I really don't mind you opening a new thread with your new version of the modified scenario, but I'd rather you didn't want to delete this one. As I'm not writing all of this just for you, but also for other players and scenario designers possibly still to come. At first, I also had to do a lot of reading of old posts in the forum and general "catching up" to do to accumulate my current knowlegde of the editor, scenarios and the game's mechanics. Designing a new scenario is always complicated with difficulties on the way. My comments were meant as encouragement for you to "better" the scenario's design, and not as spiteful criticism. As said, I'd rather you leave the thread and posts of this dialogue for future readers to notice some of the troubles in the evolution process of scenario design (and player's feedback )

I know you've put a lot of work into modifying the Bataan scenario, as I've put into writing all these posts, which take quite a long time for me to write, as I'm not native English speaking. I hope you can understand my point of view, too. Thanks and keep up the good work!

[bru888]

Since I don't have the capability of deleting threads, much less posts, and I don't want to just "wish it into the cornfield" as I do instead, I will restore the original thread title and lock it down to respect the original poster's wishes as evidenced by him having changed the title to "Please DELETE this THREAD."

P.S. - He means to now focus attention on this other thread: http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 74&t=82793