Seriously, great looking game and a great report, you have raised the bar for both!
Magnesia 190BC - Super Battle Report from Argentina (pics)
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itto_okami
- Private First Class - Opel Blitz
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Mithridates
- Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
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- Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:00 am
Francisco
Sorry for the delayed post but I only joined the foggers at the end of October. Great visual story and an excellent account of the battle. Thanks to you and your cohorts. Really liked the diagrams and enjoyed seeing well painted figures used historically. Can I ask which figure you used for Antiochus please - and was also curious about the Companions.
I was intrigued that you used the average option with the Agema - always wondered why FOG class these with the other cataphracts as the they and companions were both Guard units (probably should be rated the same?).
BTW, have you read Philip Sabin's "Lost Battles'? His account of Magnesia is interesting and as you discussed, he argues for a poor quality Seleucid army - he downgrades the Phalanx to mainly average, with some levy and includes a number of levy units in the front line such as the Cappadocians. he also has levy cavalry but rates both Agema and Companions as 'veterans' (FOG = elite). Overall according to his model he has the Romans (with veteran legions and some cavalry) at a fighting value of 71 while Antiochus despite his numerical superiority comes out at 61. This would confirm Livy's contemptuous views of the Seleucids.
Problem with all this is that Antiochus was still able to ride down some legions on his flank and while the phalanx ultimately broke it held on for some time.
C'est la guerre.
Congratulations again for your article.
Cheers
Garry
Sorry for the delayed post but I only joined the foggers at the end of October. Great visual story and an excellent account of the battle. Thanks to you and your cohorts. Really liked the diagrams and enjoyed seeing well painted figures used historically. Can I ask which figure you used for Antiochus please - and was also curious about the Companions.
I was intrigued that you used the average option with the Agema - always wondered why FOG class these with the other cataphracts as the they and companions were both Guard units (probably should be rated the same?).
BTW, have you read Philip Sabin's "Lost Battles'? His account of Magnesia is interesting and as you discussed, he argues for a poor quality Seleucid army - he downgrades the Phalanx to mainly average, with some levy and includes a number of levy units in the front line such as the Cappadocians. he also has levy cavalry but rates both Agema and Companions as 'veterans' (FOG = elite). Overall according to his model he has the Romans (with veteran legions and some cavalry) at a fighting value of 71 while Antiochus despite his numerical superiority comes out at 61. This would confirm Livy's contemptuous views of the Seleucids.
Problem with all this is that Antiochus was still able to ride down some legions on his flank and while the phalanx ultimately broke it held on for some time.
C'est la guerre.
Congratulations again for your article.
Cheers
Garry
Mithridates:
You should take into account that the purpose of "Lost Battles" it is not to fight a balanced game but to make a historical and accurate recreation of the battle. With a diference in fighting value of 10 points it is very hard to achieve the victory for the seleucids. The purpose of a game as FOG is to play a funny game with good chances of victory for both players.
Anyway "Lost Battles" is a really goog game that I would recomend to everyone not only for the combat rules but also for the deep study of ancient battles
You should take into account that the purpose of "Lost Battles" it is not to fight a balanced game but to make a historical and accurate recreation of the battle. With a diference in fighting value of 10 points it is very hard to achieve the victory for the seleucids. The purpose of a game as FOG is to play a funny game with good chances of victory for both players.
Anyway "Lost Battles" is a really goog game that I would recomend to everyone not only for the combat rules but also for the deep study of ancient battles
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Mithridates
- Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:00 am
Juanturku
Appreciate the point about Sabin's work as opposed to FOG or other rules for that matter. Having a number of Successor armies my
'prejudice' is against the dastardly Romans but historically they did triumph over the phalanx - for a variety of reasons of course!
When you game the two then the Romans have a very hard time as it is difficult to force the phalanx to loose cohesion or to eat away at its flanks. In truth I think that Sabin is right when he downplays the quality of Successor armies. When you look at historical results you have to ask why did the Argyaspides win against greater numbers - answer being that we should see far more levy pike phalanxes on the table than we do. Let's face it no wargaming general worth their salt would not upgrade their pike to at least average! Though levy in deep formation still has considerable holding power.
The army that I do want to try is Pyrrhos of Epirus - hard slog against the Romans but historical wins against the pilum!
Cheers
Garry
Appreciate the point about Sabin's work as opposed to FOG or other rules for that matter. Having a number of Successor armies my
'prejudice' is against the dastardly Romans but historically they did triumph over the phalanx - for a variety of reasons of course!
When you game the two then the Romans have a very hard time as it is difficult to force the phalanx to loose cohesion or to eat away at its flanks. In truth I think that Sabin is right when he downplays the quality of Successor armies. When you look at historical results you have to ask why did the Argyaspides win against greater numbers - answer being that we should see far more levy pike phalanxes on the table than we do. Let's face it no wargaming general worth their salt would not upgrade their pike to at least average! Though levy in deep formation still has considerable holding power.
The army that I do want to try is Pyrrhos of Epirus - hard slog against the Romans but historical wins against the pilum!
Cheers
Garry
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Seldon
- Administrative Corporal - SdKfz 251/1
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:25 pm
- Location: Austin, TX
Garry,
The reason for choosing the "average" option for the agema is quite basic. The main problem when it comes to points and Magnesia as I mentioned at the beginning is that in order for the Seleucid army to be so much larger than the Roman army as it appears to have been if trying to maintain a balanced force is that the Seleucid army has very good quality of troops in the army list.
In fact, I agree with you as I mentioned in the report that in my very humble opinion the phalanxes should be mostly poor with having the Argyraspides average ( as opposed of average and superior, so that earlier successors would have superior troop quality). Since that is not the case, and we didn't want to change the army list, since as I said this was essentially a fully compliant FOG game, then we had to take cheaper options when available, such as the average agema. ( even while doing all that the armies ended up being roughly the same size in troops ! )
I am not sure I would agree that they would qualify as elite, simply due to the very restrictive nature of elites in FOG ( which is a characteristic that I really enjoy). In any case as I said we chose average simply to put more troops on the table on the Seleucid side whenever the list allowed it.
BTW, I only got my "Lost Battles" a couple of weeks ago, and it seems to be fun and interesting reading, but I haven't started it yet ! What a coincidence that you brought it up
Regardging the compliments, once again thank you very much, it was a lot of work to put the report together and I am glad you guys enjoyed it. ( I am now working on the latest report about our first Sengoku period Samurai battle ).
I was also very glad to see that we made it to the official FOG website in their Historical refights section !! We will have to plan a new refight for the end of year...mmm maybe Zama ?
Juanturku, I promise to keep the ego down despite my origin and the many compliments which once again I need to thank you for
Finally, Garry will have to give me sometime to find out what figure we used for Antiochus and the Companions, I am back in the US now and I will have to call home to Buenos Aires to have them identify the manufacturer I'll try not to forget.
thanks !!
cheers
Francisco
The reason for choosing the "average" option for the agema is quite basic. The main problem when it comes to points and Magnesia as I mentioned at the beginning is that in order for the Seleucid army to be so much larger than the Roman army as it appears to have been if trying to maintain a balanced force is that the Seleucid army has very good quality of troops in the army list.
In fact, I agree with you as I mentioned in the report that in my very humble opinion the phalanxes should be mostly poor with having the Argyraspides average ( as opposed of average and superior, so that earlier successors would have superior troop quality). Since that is not the case, and we didn't want to change the army list, since as I said this was essentially a fully compliant FOG game, then we had to take cheaper options when available, such as the average agema. ( even while doing all that the armies ended up being roughly the same size in troops ! )
I am not sure I would agree that they would qualify as elite, simply due to the very restrictive nature of elites in FOG ( which is a characteristic that I really enjoy). In any case as I said we chose average simply to put more troops on the table on the Seleucid side whenever the list allowed it.
BTW, I only got my "Lost Battles" a couple of weeks ago, and it seems to be fun and interesting reading, but I haven't started it yet ! What a coincidence that you brought it up
Regardging the compliments, once again thank you very much, it was a lot of work to put the report together and I am glad you guys enjoyed it. ( I am now working on the latest report about our first Sengoku period Samurai battle ).
I was also very glad to see that we made it to the official FOG website in their Historical refights section !! We will have to plan a new refight for the end of year...mmm maybe Zama ?
Juanturku, I promise to keep the ego down
despite my origin and the many compliments which once again I need to thank you for Finally, Garry will have to give me sometime to find out what figure we used for Antiochus and the Companions, I am back in the US now and I will have to call home to Buenos Aires to have them identify the manufacturer
I'll try not to forget.thanks !!
cheers
Francisco
Last edited by Seldon on Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mithridates
- Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
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- Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:00 am