Cannae: Countering a wide Roman formation.

[Ludendorf]

How would people here win at Cannae against a Roman player who immediately fans out his infantry onto the wings and performs a flank swap to concentrate all of his cavalry on the right flank (to meet the Carthaginian cavalry)? To give an idea of the formations involved (Carthage on top, Rome on the bottom).

:NumCav:______:Infantry:Infantry:Infantry:Infantry:___:Cavalry:Cavalry:Cavalry:

_____________________Front line___________________________________

:Skirmscreen:________:Skirmscreen:
_____:Infantry:__:Infantry:Infantry:Infantry:Infantry:___:Infantry:Infantry:Infantry:
____________________:triarii:triarii:triarii:_______________________:Cavalry:Cavalry:Cavalry:

I'm interested in how people here would counter this formation. I'm assuming that the Roman player would be alert enough to spot a Carthaginian flank swap (and adjust their infantry and cavalry forces in response to that).

[Hendricus]

By using the Roman stratagem of the central assault. By fanning out the depth of the Legionairs is no longer there. You now can go through the center. Hit those Triarii with fresh units, they stand their ground but being only half strenght units they are not made for attrition. Pray and hope that you rout them before those Romans from the flanks reinforce the central fight. Numbers do count so you need some luck tough.

[Ludendorf]

That could work as long as the cavalry can hold the flanks and the triarii don't end up outflanking the Carthaginians as they push back the hastati. I think a smart Roman player will avoid attacking with their central line so the Carthaginians are forced to risk driving through into the triarii. It can work though; I've seen the Carthaginian infantry go through three lines of Cannae hastati and start menacing the triarii at the back (though they were in pretty rough shape by that point). So it can be done.

EDIT: Would anyone like to try this? Carthaginians vs wide Romans? I'll go the Carthaginians as I think they have the tougher job.

[GiveWarAchance]

We need more tactics threads like this. Can you post screenshots of your Cannae battles? I love screenshots.

[Ludendorf]

We need more tactics threads like this. Can you post screenshots of your Cannae battles? I love screenshots.

I'll grab some off of steam next time I play the battle. Might even make an AAR out of it if my opponent consents.

[GiveWarAchance]

Thanks Ludendorf.
And pleeeeze do that AAR! That would be very interesting with this Cannae battle.

[Hendricus]

That could work as long as the cavalry can hold the flanks and the triarii don't end up outflanking the Carthaginians as they push back the hastati. I think a smart Roman player will avoid attacking with their central line so the Carthaginians are forced to risk driving through into the triarii. It can work though; I've seen the Carthaginian infantry go through three lines of Cannae hastati and start menacing the triarii at the back (though they were in pretty rough shape by that point). So it can be done.

EDIT: Would anyone like to try this? Carthaginians vs wide Romans? I'll go the Carthaginians as I think they have the tougher job.

I volunteer for being the one commanding a wide Roman lineup, I accept that you make an AAR of this meeting.
Set it up, pasword: wide

[Ludendorf]

That could work as long as the cavalry can hold the flanks and the triarii don't end up outflanking the Carthaginians as they push back the hastati. I think a smart Roman player will avoid attacking with their central line so the Carthaginians are forced to risk driving through into the triarii. It can work though; I've seen the Carthaginian infantry go through three lines of Cannae hastati and start menacing the triarii at the back (though they were in pretty rough shape by that point). So it can be done.

EDIT: Would anyone like to try this? Carthaginians vs wide Romans? I'll go the Carthaginians as I think they have the tougher job.

I volunteer for being the one commanding a wide Roman lineup, I accept that you make an AAR of this meeting.
Set it up, pasword: wide

On it. This should be fun.

EDIT: Done. It's right at the bottom of the password-coded games. (Or at least it was when I posted this update.)

[Hendricus]

That could work as long as the cavalry can hold the flanks and the triarii don't end up outflanking the Carthaginians as they push back the hastati. I think a smart Roman player will avoid attacking with their central line so the Carthaginians are forced to risk driving through into the triarii. It can work though; I've seen the Carthaginian infantry go through three lines of Cannae hastati and start menacing the triarii at the back (though they were in pretty rough shape by that point). So it can be done.

EDIT: Would anyone like to try this? Carthaginians vs wide Romans? I'll go the Carthaginians as I think they have the tougher job.

I volunteer for being the one commanding a wide Roman lineup, I accept that you make an AAR of this meeting.
Set it up, pasword: wide

Found it and accepted it. As soon as I start to move my troops to form up in a checkerboard line so it overlaps yours by at least 2 squares. Perhaps this is just what the other consul would have done.

[Ludendorf]

That could work as long as the cavalry can hold the flanks and the triarii don't end up outflanking the Carthaginians as they push back the hastati. I think a smart Roman player will avoid attacking with their central line so the Carthaginians are forced to risk driving through into the triarii. It can work though; I've seen the Carthaginian infantry go through three lines of Cannae hastati and start menacing the triarii at the back (though they were in pretty rough shape by that point). So it can be done.

EDIT: Would anyone like to try this? Carthaginians vs wide Romans? I'll go the Carthaginians as I think they have the tougher job.

I volunteer for being the one commanding a wide Roman lineup, I accept that you make an AAR of this meeting.
Set it up, pasword: wide

Found it and accepted it. As soon as I start to move my troops to form up in a checkerboard line so it overlaps yours by at least 2 squares. Perhaps this is just what the other consul would have done.

Awesome. Bear in mind I won't just stand still and let you do this!

[Hendricus]

As I claimed, the Carthagians can simply counter a Roman fanning out. The Carthagian needs some luck tough.

[Ludendorf]

I'll try to start the AAR tomorrow.

[SimonLancaster]

I am playing this mp battle now as the Romans. Let’s see how my spread goes...

[jomni]

I played Romans once in MP. I didn’t fan out but my layered centre decimated all Cathage infantry while some of my troops and triarii held off the cavalry.

[SimonLancaster]

I would like to report that Cannae is absolutely going to the wire. It is currently about 26% casualties for both sides. Roman Triarii are getting ripped apart. All the Carthaginian cav are causing trouble on the Roman right flank. Reserves going in now!

[cromlechi]

Looking forward to seeing this AAR

[SimonLancaster]

I lost as Rome. The Carthaginian infantry was in the end too strong for me. I forget who I played but the mass of Carthaginian cavalry did well in killing and diverting troops away from the main line.

[kongxinga]

But did you lose as badly as the roman's did historically? If it was a close fight it probably would have shaved a year or two off the actual length of the war. Hannibal won convincingly and still lost in the end. If it was closer I assume the war would be shorter.

Was there any reason the consuls did not fan it out historically?

[SimonLancaster]

There is a lot of Carthaginian cavalry to fight which you need to take care of. The battle was really tight until near the end. It might have been 60% to 54% or so I forget the exact number.

[Some Random Guy]

Was there any reason the consuls did not fan it out historically?

One of them was sulking, and the other was an idiot. They'd always lined up with cavalry on the wings, so that was what they did this time, even though it sounds like they had enough infantry to reach secure flanks on both sides.

The problem with any realistic simulation of Cannae is that if you're playing as Roman you have to be really, really stupid to lose.