I am a relatively infrequent FOG player. Upcoming at Fall In is a 25mm Themed 650 point SOA event. I played some practice games with my Swiss. I found that they suffered the following problems.
1. Classification as heavy foot-in DBR Swiss pike actually move faster than other pike, here they are all heavy infantry, so you have a mountainous terrain army that has no mountain troops!
2. The pike don't match up well against armored Retinue Billmen: Yes, on impact my pike hit on 4,5,6. But even if they win, the retinue billmen can expand in the melee phase to gain overlaps. I was using 8 stand pike battlegroups vs. 6 stand retinue billmen. So, even if I won the opening round, on the second round he had armor and HW vs. pike, so he went to 6 stands fighting vs. 4. If I won the first round billmen are 5's and 6's and I am still 4,5 and 6. But, if I lost or drew the first round then he had 6 rolls vs. my 4, and death followed.
3. Lack of any medium/rough terrain troops to secure flanks.
At least one UK player tried the earlier all Halberd swiss. This leaves one very vulnerable to cavalry of course, but you would have an edge over Retinue Billmen based on price.
Italian Condotta let you have a large Swiss contingent, but with some medium infantry to contest rough ground, and perhaps a few too many knights.
Any suggestions for improving my Swiss performance, or recommendations for other armies for this themed event?
Army List suggestions for Themed Storm of Arrows Tournament
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michaelguth
- Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:33 am
Mike, there are a number of Swiss threads you can dig up with a search.
FYI I repost my Swiss doctrine from earlier this year, which proved good fun and a very historical feel against the French - the Swiss don't move with superspeed, but otherwise I think the rules do fair justice to the Swiss.
SWISS DOCTRINE (May 2008): The Swiss army makes maximum use of speed and Drilled manoeuvreability to use the concentrated power of massed Pikes to smash part of the enemy before they can avoid the blow, then keeps up fast attacks to keep the enemy on the defensive.
The army is divided into Vorhut (vanguard), Gewalthut (main body of Pikes from 3 or 4 Cantons), and nachhut (rearguard). A target is determined and the Gewalthut moves to the assault en masse. The Vanguard and Nachhut either cover the flanks, pin, or deliver a secondary or diversionary attack. Handgunners and Enfants Perdus precede the Gewalthut to screen, harass, and provoke shock troops and then move to the rear or flanks. Crossbows advance on the exposed flank within safe range of the Pikes. Mounted Crossbows advance at the outset to slow the enemy that potentially threatens the flank of the army. The Halberdiers are used flexibly, when in doubt behind the Gewalthut ready to defend their flank. The Lorrainers are a mobile reserve located near the Gewalthut, intended mainly to counter flank threats on the Gewalthut and take targets of opportunity.
Our inspired committee of commanders extends its benign aura of wisdom and confidence over the bulk of the army. The committee does not fight in the front rank, and focuses on helping troop manoeuvre and rallying faltering troops. The Duc de Lorraine generally remains near his Knights. Sturm is initially active on the "inner" flank where the enemy threatens, while Schtab may lead scouts early on but falls back to fight the Pikes of the Gewalthut thereafter.
Assaults should be made by at least two central BGs of Pikes of the Gewalthut on a broad front, with a Commander in the front rank if the outcome may be in doubt. The Committee should be attached to one of the assaulting BGs, but not in the front rank. Upon breakthrough, after pursuit the Pikes should immediately turn to clear the front of the Gewalthut of non-routing enemies and then push as a body to one flank or the other, leaving a rearguard if needed.
When advancing to the assault, the supports (including the Vorhut and Nachhut unless detached). will typically fall back to an echelon-back position as the Gewalthut pushes forward. Upon success in the assault, the supports try to pin down the enemy front as the Gewalthut attacks their flank.
All light units are to attempt to stay alive and divert enemy attention rather than do any serious fighting. If a breach is made, lights near there may be sent for the enemy Camp if near. Lights forced back on the flanks may seek to cover our camp.
Pikes attack in deep formations but may act defensively in a shallower formation to gain frontage. The offensive is preferable, but if surrounded Pikes may form into Orb with the intention of safely tying down enemy troops.
Terrain is preferably a narrow frontage of open ground with impassable or secure flanks where we can rely on frontal power, but if the enemy could dominate the open from there with terrain troops then open ground is better. Deployment is set up to defer commitment of the Pikes and allow some late placements of the reserve and 2 Cantons' Pikes.
OB and Order of March
IC, 2xTC, Ally TC - Council, Cantonal Captains, Duc de Lorraine
1 Mtd Crossbowmen LH Unprotected Average Drilled Crossbow 4 @ 7 = 28
2 Handgunners LF Unprotected Average Drilled Firearm - - - 4 @ 4 = 16
3 Crossbows LF Unprotected Average Drilled Crossbow - - - 6 @ 5 = 30
4 Enfants Perdus LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins - - - 6 @ 2 = 12
5 Glaurus HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
6 Zug HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
7 Schwyz HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
8 Unterwalden HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
9 Halberdiers HF Protected Superior Drilled - Heavy weapon - - 6 @ 10 = 60
10 Uri HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 56
11 Zurich HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
12 Knights of Lorraine Kn HvArm Average Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4 @ 21 = 84
The French had a hill advantage where they stood on defensive and made an attempt to envelop but that takes time with delaying efforts by skirmishers. The echelonned flank cover and use of terrain restricting mounted movement gave time to blow through the center. The pursue/move and turn/charge flank/rear rollup is nice and fast if the enemy lacks a reserve to stop you. Of course, if the Swiss somehow get stalled frontally and smashed in the flank it can get ugly, and fighting a skirmisher army would be no fun at all, but that's only to be expected.
Impassable terrain is rarely used, but has much to recommend it for the Swiss by turning the battlefield into something more like a mountain pass and a head-on fight. There wasn't that much terrain against the French, but providentially what there was set up a nice avenue of attack on one side of the battlefield against the French hill while an enclosed field on my side near the middle helped the lights impede the French envelopment on that side. The frontal fight was simple, the flank defense was based on threat, intercepts, shooting, and having the Committee close to steady the troops.
FYI I repost my Swiss doctrine from earlier this year, which proved good fun and a very historical feel against the French - the Swiss don't move with superspeed, but otherwise I think the rules do fair justice to the Swiss.
SWISS DOCTRINE (May 2008): The Swiss army makes maximum use of speed and Drilled manoeuvreability to use the concentrated power of massed Pikes to smash part of the enemy before they can avoid the blow, then keeps up fast attacks to keep the enemy on the defensive.
The army is divided into Vorhut (vanguard), Gewalthut (main body of Pikes from 3 or 4 Cantons), and nachhut (rearguard). A target is determined and the Gewalthut moves to the assault en masse. The Vanguard and Nachhut either cover the flanks, pin, or deliver a secondary or diversionary attack. Handgunners and Enfants Perdus precede the Gewalthut to screen, harass, and provoke shock troops and then move to the rear or flanks. Crossbows advance on the exposed flank within safe range of the Pikes. Mounted Crossbows advance at the outset to slow the enemy that potentially threatens the flank of the army. The Halberdiers are used flexibly, when in doubt behind the Gewalthut ready to defend their flank. The Lorrainers are a mobile reserve located near the Gewalthut, intended mainly to counter flank threats on the Gewalthut and take targets of opportunity.
Our inspired committee of commanders extends its benign aura of wisdom and confidence over the bulk of the army. The committee does not fight in the front rank, and focuses on helping troop manoeuvre and rallying faltering troops. The Duc de Lorraine generally remains near his Knights. Sturm is initially active on the "inner" flank where the enemy threatens, while Schtab may lead scouts early on but falls back to fight the Pikes of the Gewalthut thereafter.
Assaults should be made by at least two central BGs of Pikes of the Gewalthut on a broad front, with a Commander in the front rank if the outcome may be in doubt. The Committee should be attached to one of the assaulting BGs, but not in the front rank. Upon breakthrough, after pursuit the Pikes should immediately turn to clear the front of the Gewalthut of non-routing enemies and then push as a body to one flank or the other, leaving a rearguard if needed.
When advancing to the assault, the supports (including the Vorhut and Nachhut unless detached). will typically fall back to an echelon-back position as the Gewalthut pushes forward. Upon success in the assault, the supports try to pin down the enemy front as the Gewalthut attacks their flank.
All light units are to attempt to stay alive and divert enemy attention rather than do any serious fighting. If a breach is made, lights near there may be sent for the enemy Camp if near. Lights forced back on the flanks may seek to cover our camp.
Pikes attack in deep formations but may act defensively in a shallower formation to gain frontage. The offensive is preferable, but if surrounded Pikes may form into Orb with the intention of safely tying down enemy troops.
Terrain is preferably a narrow frontage of open ground with impassable or secure flanks where we can rely on frontal power, but if the enemy could dominate the open from there with terrain troops then open ground is better. Deployment is set up to defer commitment of the Pikes and allow some late placements of the reserve and 2 Cantons' Pikes.
OB and Order of March
IC, 2xTC, Ally TC - Council, Cantonal Captains, Duc de Lorraine
1 Mtd Crossbowmen LH Unprotected Average Drilled Crossbow 4 @ 7 = 28
2 Handgunners LF Unprotected Average Drilled Firearm - - - 4 @ 4 = 16
3 Crossbows LF Unprotected Average Drilled Crossbow - - - 6 @ 5 = 30
4 Enfants Perdus LF Unprotected Poor Undrilled Javelins - - - 6 @ 2 = 12
5 Glaurus HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
6 Zug HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
7 Schwyz HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
8 Unterwalden HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
9 Halberdiers HF Protected Superior Drilled - Heavy weapon - - 6 @ 10 = 60
10 Uri HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 56
11 Zurich HF Protected Superior Drilled - Pikemen Pikemen - 8 @ 8 = 64
12 Knights of Lorraine Kn HvArm Average Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4 @ 21 = 84
The French had a hill advantage where they stood on defensive and made an attempt to envelop but that takes time with delaying efforts by skirmishers. The echelonned flank cover and use of terrain restricting mounted movement gave time to blow through the center. The pursue/move and turn/charge flank/rear rollup is nice and fast if the enemy lacks a reserve to stop you. Of course, if the Swiss somehow get stalled frontally and smashed in the flank it can get ugly, and fighting a skirmisher army would be no fun at all, but that's only to be expected.
Impassable terrain is rarely used, but has much to recommend it for the Swiss by turning the battlefield into something more like a mountain pass and a head-on fight. There wasn't that much terrain against the French, but providentially what there was set up a nice avenue of attack on one side of the battlefield against the French hill while an enclosed field on my side near the middle helped the lights impede the French envelopment on that side. The frontal fight was simple, the flank defense was based on threat, intercepts, shooting, and having the Committee close to steady the troops.
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nikgaukroger
- Field of Glory Moderator
- Posts: 10287
- Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:30 am
- Location: LarryWorld
Re: Army List suggestions for Themed Storm of Arrows Tournam
Don't let you pikemen BGs get isolated from each other/their supports so that the enemy can't leverage overlaps against you. OK, like many gaming things sometimes easier said then doen but it is what you should aim for.michaelguth wrote:
2. The pike don't match up well against armored Retinue Billmen: Yes, on impact my pike hit on 4,5,6. But even if they win, the retinue billmen can expand in the melee phase to gain overlaps. I was using 8 stand pike battlegroups vs. 6 stand retinue billmen. So, even if I won the opening round, on the second round he had armor and HW vs. pike, so he went to 6 stands fighting vs. 4. If I won the first round billmen are 5's and 6's and I am still 4,5 and 6. But, if I lost or drew the first round then he had 6 rolls vs. my 4, and death followed.
Any suggestions for improving my Swiss performance, or recommendations for other armies for this themed event?
BTW Superior Heavy Weapon types, even if HF, are pretty good terrain troops to cover the flanks of the pikemen. The Superior can often offset the loss of dice as long as you avoid terrain that Severley Disorders you.
Nik Gaukroger
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith
nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
"Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does, he will tell you.
If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith
nikgaukroger@blueyonder.co.uk
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jre
- Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:17 pm
- Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Two comments on the list, as I am doing tests with a Swiss army as well.
The Enfant perdus cannot be used after 1360, so you should get another group of handgunners, scrounging some points from somewhere. As well, the Duc of Lorraine is a Subgeneral, not an ally (and nominally the C-in-C), so he is more flexible but a bit more expensive.
I take all the handgunners in groups of 4, both to increase attrition and mobility, with the aim to both cover the front of the pikes (to avoid being hampered by big projectiles) and a flank.
This is an army that needs to lose initiative to get a first move, so I take 4 TCs and no Lorrainers. Instead I use 4 Halberd BGs to cover flanks and to give rear support to the pikes. That is why they deploy in pairs. Depending on if the enemy has many projectiles or good HF, the 10 base pike BGs go to the flanks or the center. In the flank I deploy them in three files, to count as 9 to projectiles and still be able to beat almost any mounted.
The tactics presented by Mike are good. I use also all those halberdier BGs and maybe the two flank pike BGs to cover the flanks of the main group, but impact should be by at least three pike BGs. That way each pike group suffers at most one overlap, and if winning you can advance the rear support halberdiers to move in melee (optimum) or charge in to get more dice.
Remember that shock troops have to roll to avoid charging the pikes, no matter how hopeless it may seem, so use the flankers to provoke the enemy.
Another peculiar problem is that your LF may be unable, even with 2 extra MUs, to cross the deep pike formations, so take it into account when keeping them to the pikes front. Often it is better to move them to the sides of the battle line, to reduce shooting dice against the critical pike BGs.
Be ready to use all the time the 90º and advances (and viceversa). With a TC with the BG you almost never will fail, so commander placement should be reviewed each joint phase.
My Swiss:
4 TC
1 4LH, Av, Und, Unp, XB
2 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
3 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
4 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
5 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
6 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
7 10HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
8 6HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
9 8HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
10 4HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
11 8HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
12 4HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
13 8HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
14 10HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
15 6HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
José
The Enfant perdus cannot be used after 1360, so you should get another group of handgunners, scrounging some points from somewhere. As well, the Duc of Lorraine is a Subgeneral, not an ally (and nominally the C-in-C), so he is more flexible but a bit more expensive.
I take all the handgunners in groups of 4, both to increase attrition and mobility, with the aim to both cover the front of the pikes (to avoid being hampered by big projectiles) and a flank.
This is an army that needs to lose initiative to get a first move, so I take 4 TCs and no Lorrainers. Instead I use 4 Halberd BGs to cover flanks and to give rear support to the pikes. That is why they deploy in pairs. Depending on if the enemy has many projectiles or good HF, the 10 base pike BGs go to the flanks or the center. In the flank I deploy them in three files, to count as 9 to projectiles and still be able to beat almost any mounted.
The tactics presented by Mike are good. I use also all those halberdier BGs and maybe the two flank pike BGs to cover the flanks of the main group, but impact should be by at least three pike BGs. That way each pike group suffers at most one overlap, and if winning you can advance the rear support halberdiers to move in melee (optimum) or charge in to get more dice.
Remember that shock troops have to roll to avoid charging the pikes, no matter how hopeless it may seem, so use the flankers to provoke the enemy.
Another peculiar problem is that your LF may be unable, even with 2 extra MUs, to cross the deep pike formations, so take it into account when keeping them to the pikes front. Often it is better to move them to the sides of the battle line, to reduce shooting dice against the critical pike BGs.
Be ready to use all the time the 90º and advances (and viceversa). With a TC with the BG you almost never will fail, so commander placement should be reviewed each joint phase.
My Swiss:
4 TC
1 4LH, Av, Und, Unp, XB
2 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
3 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
4 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
5 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
6 4LF, Av, Dr, Unp, Fi
7 10HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
8 6HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
9 8HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
10 4HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
11 8HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
12 4HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
13 8HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
14 10HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, Pk
15 6HF, Sup, Dr, Prot, HW
José
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michaelguth
- Lance Corporal - SdKfz 222
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:33 am
Many thanks
Tournament is a bit unusual in being themed, 25mm and only 650 points. I bought this army 25 years ago for 6th edition WRG rules. The figures are the old Hinchliffe. They basically never saw battle because 7th edition made them take extra fatigue for being Extra Heavy Infantry. So, this is a trip down memory lane for us!
I should be able to sit down and figure out the math of what will happen when I start getting shot at by 8 longbows at a time. The Heavy foot with heavy weapon vs. pike was a real problem last game, but perhaps my dice were bad, I was losing bases all over the place, and my attack was fragmented just enough to allow him overlaps. Have to place more impassable terrain and stay absolutely linear....
Found several threads on Swiss, many thanks for your replies!
I should be able to sit down and figure out the math of what will happen when I start getting shot at by 8 longbows at a time. The Heavy foot with heavy weapon vs. pike was a real problem last game, but perhaps my dice were bad, I was losing bases all over the place, and my attack was fragmented just enough to allow him overlaps. Have to place more impassable terrain and stay absolutely linear....
Found several threads on Swiss, many thanks for your replies!
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jre
- Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:17 pm
- Location: Zaragoza, Spain
Just an update. I played in the Middle Ages pool in Barcelona (the XVIth edition of their ancient tournament, first time with FoG) with the army above, and I would not change anything, despite finishing 5th out of 10. It was just my mistakes and bad pairings.
First game was against a Catalan Company. They hid in Brush and Forest, while the mounted hid beyond the terrain. I made parade movements in a small area in the center of the table. A pike group overcharged LF and got into terrain with the almughavars (they were as Off. Spear), an almughavar group got caught in the open and ground down, and the handgunners shot down a cavalry group to get a favourable draw.
Second game was against an Ottoman Turk, and I was wondering what had possessed me to expect knights and spear blocks in the Middle Ages. Storm of arrows against led and supported pike blocks. I managed to reach the Turkish infantry after a long and slow trudge under fire, but only managed to break a group before time over. This time I was quite happy with the draw as my cohesion rolls had been excellent. The Ottomans went on to win the tournament.
Third game against a Medieval Danish. He decided to fight, so this was a textbook Swiss battle, with the rear halberdiers overlapping edges, covering flanks and filling holes left by pursuing pikes. Total victory despite losing two generals (in winning combats, no less). The Danish formation is even on melee against pikes, but once they lose the front bases it is crunch time.
Fourth game against a Venetian condotta, which ended up with the Venetians running away while their skirmishers delayed me. A draw kept him in the top three, while I needed a win to get anywhere, so it was good tournament playing, if not a satisfactory game, specially as he had nothing that could fight even with me except 16 Swiss pikes (against 44). When it was clear I would catch a couple of BGs and the time limit was close he turned back. Lack of aggresiveness on my part and a LF BG unable to clear a pike block (not following my own advice) after rolling a 1 in evasion meant a suicidal knight charge became 2 broken BGs for me (disordered pike is not good enough against 6 knights, specially with them scoring easy hits on the LF). Losing draw to end the tournament.
Despite the average result, I was quite happy with the army's performance, as the only battle where I expected a better result it was my fault rather than the army's. The face of the opponents when you deploy the troop brick is precious, then double moving 8 BGs with one TC. Maneuvering, rolling cohesion and fighting with superior troops is an addictive experience.
I recommend using a moving tray, however. Marching 24 pikes with 8 HW with clumsy fingers becomes quickly a pushing match.
José
First game was against a Catalan Company. They hid in Brush and Forest, while the mounted hid beyond the terrain. I made parade movements in a small area in the center of the table. A pike group overcharged LF and got into terrain with the almughavars (they were as Off. Spear), an almughavar group got caught in the open and ground down, and the handgunners shot down a cavalry group to get a favourable draw.
Second game was against an Ottoman Turk, and I was wondering what had possessed me to expect knights and spear blocks in the Middle Ages. Storm of arrows against led and supported pike blocks. I managed to reach the Turkish infantry after a long and slow trudge under fire, but only managed to break a group before time over. This time I was quite happy with the draw as my cohesion rolls had been excellent. The Ottomans went on to win the tournament.
Third game against a Medieval Danish. He decided to fight, so this was a textbook Swiss battle, with the rear halberdiers overlapping edges, covering flanks and filling holes left by pursuing pikes. Total victory despite losing two generals (in winning combats, no less). The Danish formation is even on melee against pikes, but once they lose the front bases it is crunch time.
Fourth game against a Venetian condotta, which ended up with the Venetians running away while their skirmishers delayed me. A draw kept him in the top three, while I needed a win to get anywhere, so it was good tournament playing, if not a satisfactory game, specially as he had nothing that could fight even with me except 16 Swiss pikes (against 44). When it was clear I would catch a couple of BGs and the time limit was close he turned back. Lack of aggresiveness on my part and a LF BG unable to clear a pike block (not following my own advice) after rolling a 1 in evasion meant a suicidal knight charge became 2 broken BGs for me (disordered pike is not good enough against 6 knights, specially with them scoring easy hits on the LF). Losing draw to end the tournament.
Despite the average result, I was quite happy with the army's performance, as the only battle where I expected a better result it was my fault rather than the army's. The face of the opponents when you deploy the troop brick is precious, then double moving 8 BGs with one TC. Maneuvering, rolling cohesion and fighting with superior troops is an addictive experience.
I recommend using a moving tray, however. Marching 24 pikes with 8 HW with clumsy fingers becomes quickly a pushing match.
José
Thanks for the AAR. So, for the most part, when the enemy saw the Swiss they decided not to fight them head on - has a ring of historicity to it!
How seriously did your opponents try to flank you?
Did you miss Lorrainers at all, or were the HW a good substitute?
The LF get you a nice attition point count. How many did you use actively?
You think an IC would be unnecessary to deal even with a heavy shooting army?
Mike
Mike
How seriously did your opponents try to flank you?
Did you miss Lorrainers at all, or were the HW a good substitute?
The LF get you a nice attition point count. How many did you use actively?
You think an IC would be unnecessary to deal even with a heavy shooting army?
Mike
Mike
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jre
- Staff Sergeant - StuG IIIF
- Posts: 252
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:17 pm
- Location: Zaragoza, Spain
The Catalan company did try to flank me, but I had two BGs more than he did, so there was always a BG facing his own troops, and he was not willing to get entangled in the open where I could reinforce more easily.
The Turks flanked me with LH, but I just ignored them and kept marching. I did hide some LF in terrain, however, when there was not enough HF to hide behind.
With the Venetian the flank was anchored on a steep hill full of handgunners while his LH engaged in skirmish in the plain, and two Halberds BG covered the camp.
With 15 groups, 9 of them combat groups, you can always detach 4 and still keep a strong strike force.
Only against the Ottomans would I have benefited from the knights extra range, but the group of 4 would have been vulnerable to ganging up. The other battles knights would not have given anything, in my opinion.
Usually three LF, sometimes with LH support, and a pike BG covered a flank. I broke two flank guard cavalry BGs with handgun fire. The other LFs usually screened pikes from flank shooters but usually got in the way so had to be sent back. I am quite happy with the interaction between short range LF and HF in close support, but there is a moment when you have to stop shooting and move the pikes in. I tend to delay that one turn more than the optimum.
It is interesting that the only battle where I did not have the tactical initiative was the one where I actually won the initiative (against the condotta). It would be nice to have a +2, but it is not really necessary being superior, and a couple of TCs usually give support to all your main units, so I will stick to 0 PBI. With 15 groups 4 commanders is a must. There was a phase against the ottomans when I had 6 BGs disrupted (all by shooting). In two turns only one remained unsteady.
The only change I would consider is to exchange the LH for crossbow LF. There were several moments where it really hampered my maneuvering, unlike the LF, and is often a target for the enemy LH if it is on a flank. The extra range is a bonus.
It is not a tournament winner, because if the enemy does not want to fight it is hard to make them do it, and LH armies are a big problem. But it is a fun army, and it lets you terrorize and brutalize most armies you can catch. Good for those who have suffered at the hands of knights.
José
The Turks flanked me with LH, but I just ignored them and kept marching. I did hide some LF in terrain, however, when there was not enough HF to hide behind.
With the Venetian the flank was anchored on a steep hill full of handgunners while his LH engaged in skirmish in the plain, and two Halberds BG covered the camp.
With 15 groups, 9 of them combat groups, you can always detach 4 and still keep a strong strike force.
Only against the Ottomans would I have benefited from the knights extra range, but the group of 4 would have been vulnerable to ganging up. The other battles knights would not have given anything, in my opinion.
Usually three LF, sometimes with LH support, and a pike BG covered a flank. I broke two flank guard cavalry BGs with handgun fire. The other LFs usually screened pikes from flank shooters but usually got in the way so had to be sent back. I am quite happy with the interaction between short range LF and HF in close support, but there is a moment when you have to stop shooting and move the pikes in. I tend to delay that one turn more than the optimum.
It is interesting that the only battle where I did not have the tactical initiative was the one where I actually won the initiative (against the condotta). It would be nice to have a +2, but it is not really necessary being superior, and a couple of TCs usually give support to all your main units, so I will stick to 0 PBI. With 15 groups 4 commanders is a must. There was a phase against the ottomans when I had 6 BGs disrupted (all by shooting). In two turns only one remained unsteady.
The only change I would consider is to exchange the LH for crossbow LF. There were several moments where it really hampered my maneuvering, unlike the LF, and is often a target for the enemy LH if it is on a flank. The extra range is a bonus.
It is not a tournament winner, because if the enemy does not want to fight it is hard to make them do it, and LH armies are a big problem. But it is a fun army, and it lets you terrorize and brutalize most armies you can catch. Good for those who have suffered at the hands of knights.
José