Sacking Camps and Close Combat Question

[BrianC]

I have never used camps before but my friend and I are planning on doing so in our game tomorrow. I was wondering about a potential situation that may or may not occur. What would happen if a BG is trying to sack a camp and is unsuccessful so I bring up a BG to help save my camp. My enemy simply turns his BG 180 degrees so that the rear of his BG is in contact with the camp and now facing my BG bearing down on him. He continues to roll to sack the camp as the rules only state you must be in contact, not frontal combat.

What happens if we are in close combat, does the sacking BG get the modifier for fighting in 2 directions? Is there a modifier to reduce the chance to sack the camp when the BG is engaged in melee?

I ask the above because technically 2 ranks fight in a melee but it seems like they can still sack a camp while engaged elsewhere.

Thanks

Brian

[BrianC]

My question is kind of falling down the list so thought I would try to re-energize it again. Has this situation ever happened to anyone? The rules seem to allow a BG to be both sacking a camp and fight in combat since the rules say what you can do but don't explicitly say you can't. I'm just trying to confirm from someone in the know how to handle this situation when it arises in a game now that we are using camps.

Thanks for any insght,

Brian

[KingHassan]

Why have you not been using camps?

[IanB3406]

Seems a bit of cheese to be in contact with your rear and still be counted as attempting to sack the camp......maybe the guru's don't have a good answer as this is allowed by the letter of the rules...hence no answer to your question.

I think that attacking a camp does not count as combat....so no to the -1 for enemy in two directions...

Note that this assumes you have a fortified camp. A non-fortified is auto - sacked and you gotta make a CMT to stop sacking.

Ian

[BrianC]

Why have you not been using camps?

To be honest your Kingship, I just assumed that using camps was a hold over from DBx. And I am not a big fan of DB anything. I tried it and did not like it in the least. I assumed it was to appease the DBx players. But I want to be fair and use the rules as written. My will has been broken and hope to some day play in a tournament. Not here in Canada of course but in the northwestern US or UK if I can swing a vacation that way next year. I have really been bitten by the FOG bug and can't get enough of it. I'm even planning on creating some camp stands with structures and removable fortifications rather than just a green piece of basing material. Also I have recently read a few accounts of baggage being attacked so it is historical. Up till recently I have read no accounts of such attacks. And I am new in this period so my ignorance is great but so is my yearning to read more on the various campaigns and battles

Brian

[BrianC]

Seems a bit of cheese to be in contact with your rear and still be counted as attempting to sack the camp......maybe the guru's don't have a good answer as this is allowed by the letter of the rules...hence no answer to your question.

I think that attacking a camp does not count as combat....so no to the -1 for enemy in two directions...

Note that this assumes you have a fortified camp. A non-fortified is auto - sacked and you gotta make a CMT to stop sacking.

Ian

Honestly Ian, I smelled potential cheese as well. Which was why I was hoping for a confirmation. I think I just posted the initial question on Saturday, perhaps there was a tournament or something and no one read it. Then it got placed below where it is easily missed.

But everything that I read in the rules would allow you to sack the camp and still fight with no detriment to either action. Not sure if it makes sense. Glad its not just me, with all the silence I was wondering what I was missing, thanks for the sanity check

Brian

[SirGarnet]

My naive common-sense view:

1. You need to contact a normal camp with a front edge to sack it, then you stop moving until after you pass your CMT to stop looting. P 88 says "no combat takes place," so if contacted by other enemy you respond normally as if not frontally engaged.

2. You need to contact a fortified camp with a front edge to try to sack it, and then you stop moving until
a. One of the BGs trying to sack it passes its die roll and it is sacked.
b. You are attacked from another direction, in which case you respond normally as if not frontally engaged.

However, based on this thread, several things are in doubt:

3. Is side or rear contact sufficient to sack a camp?

4. Can you abandon trying to sack a fortified camp by moving off voluntarily?

5. How do you respond if contacted by fresh enemy?

[pyruse]

Brian wrote:
To be honest your Kingship, I just assumed that using camps was a hold over from DBx
--------------------
Since camps featured in many, many ancient battles, it's surely just an example of the rules trying to reflect history?
The same reason it's in Dbx, in fact.

[sagji]

My naive common-sense view:

1. You need to contact a normal camp with a front edge to sack it, then you stop moving until after you pass your CMT to stop looting. P 88 says "no combat takes place," so if contacted by other enemy you respond normally as if not frontally engaged.

2. You need to contact a fortified camp with a front edge to try to sack it, and then you stop moving until
a. One of the BGs trying to sack it passes its die roll and it is sacked.

AND you rally from looting (pass a CMT in the JAP)

b. You are attacked from another direction, in which case you respond normally as if not frontally engaged.

I would have to check the rules but from what you quote I would say that the bases that contacted the baggage are in close combat - though no combat is resolved, the same as contacting routers.

However, based on this thread, several things are in doubt:

3. Is side or rear contact sufficient to sack a camp?

I don't think so - I think if you cease to have your front edge in contact with the baggage you cease to be sacking.

4. Can you abandon trying to sack a fortified camp by moving off voluntarily?

No you have to sack it and then rally

5. How do you respond if contacted by fresh enemy?

As any other BG in close combat.

[BrianC]

Brian wrote:
To be honest your Kingship, I just assumed that using camps was a hold over from DBx
--------------------
Since camps featured in many, many ancient battles, it's surely just an example of the rules trying to reflect history?
The same reason it's in Dbx, in fact.

Hey Pyruse,

As I mentioned above, my reading in this period is very limited. Really only to high level campaign books on the Punic War, no mention really of the sacking of camps. I'm trying to locate battle accounts.

Brian

[BrianC]

My naive common-sense view:
...
3. Is side or rear contact sufficient to sack a camp?

I don't think so - I think if you cease to have your front edge in contact with the baggage you cease to be sacking.

Can you give a page reference that says you have to be in frontal contact with a camp to sack it? I ask that because when I do it I will point to the page and ask where it says you must be in front contact, it simply says contact. And in reverse if someone else tries it and asks me to show them in the rules where they can't, I cannot do that. The rules simply say contact and by definition that is any side contact even rear edge. If not then it really needs to be in the FAQ. I'm just trying to get an official reply to this situation.

Brian

[dave_r]

Having had two sacked camps in the game last night then I do know a bit about this at the moment...

A camp is considered sacked if you move into contact during the movement phase. Obviously this doesn't state moving your front edge into contact, so any contact is sufficient. However, you would have to try fairly hard to move your rear into contact as you would have to start facing away from the camp and then pass a CMT to "reverse" into it. Flank contact is much easier so is possible.

Once you have made contact with the camp is is sacked. Your opponent immediately gains 2 Attrition points. You then need a succesfull CMT in the JAP phase to move in your next movement phase. If you get charged whilst sacking then normally this would be a flank or rear charge with all the appropriate negatives involved.

If you survive the impact phase, you can turn around, which is effectively sufficient to stop sacking the camp (suddenly there are more important matters on hand than lifting a few valuable and investigating wenches...).

[philqw78]

Had this ruled at the BHGS challenge for a LH unit. Since no combat took place my LH could evade from a charge so didn't need to pass a CMT to stop looting. Haven't seen it done with a fortified camp, but there is another big thread on this somewhere on the forum. But I can't see a reaon why a unit attempting to loot a fortified camp cannot move away from it next turn once it get bored trying.

[nikgaukroger]

Having had two sacked camps in the game last night then I do know a bit about this at the moment...

A camp is considered sacked if you move into contact during the movement phase. Obviously this doesn't state moving your front edge into contact, so any contact is sufficient. However, you would have to try fairly hard to move your rear into contact as you would have to start facing away from the camp and then pass a CMT to "reverse" into it.

Even then you wouldn't actually reverse into it as all the moves you'd CMT for actually involve a turn followed by a move - and in the case of the LF/LH 3MU shuffle another turn at the end

[BrianC]

Having had two sacked camps in the game last night then I do know a bit about this at the moment...

A camp is considered sacked if you move into contact during the movement phase. Obviously this doesn't state moving your front edge into contact, so any contact is sufficient. However, you would have to try fairly hard to move your rear into contact as you would have to start facing away from the camp and then pass a CMT to "reverse" into it.

Even then you wouldn't actually reverse into it as all the moves you'd CMT for actually involve a turn followed by a move - and in the case of the LF/LH 3MU shuffle another turn at the end

Actually the way I would contact a camp given the existing wording is move into frontal contact with the camp and begin sacking. Chances are it will be fortified so no idea how long it will take. In the mean time in the next turn I would turn the BG 180 and remain in place. In preparation for a fast get away or to face any opposition coming my way.

Brian

[philqw78]

If it was not fortified you could not turn until you have passed a cmt in the jap

[SirGarnet]

OK, so is the following correct:

1. You contact an enemy camp in your manoeuvre phase (p20, p78), necessarily at some point along a BG's front or side edge. (Evaders and routers go around except friendly routers pass through an unfortified camp (p67, p100).)

You then can't move until:

2. You are forced to turn or otherwise break the existing contact to respond to an enemy charge or melee or as a result of a cohesion test or CMT (response may include evading from a charge, which is necessarily around the camp (can get ugly).

OR

3. After immediately sacking an unfortified camp (p20) you stop looting by passing the CMT to stop looting in any Joint Action Phase.

OR

4. After attacking and eventually sacking a fortified camp (p20, you start looting, then attempt to stop looting by passing the CMT to stop looting in any Joint Action Phase.


5. Once all looters of a camp successfully pass CMTs to stop looting, the camp is immediately removed (p107).[Corrected]


Other campy facts:
* You can be shot at while attacking a fortified camp but not while looting (p84).
* A camp is not a BG (p22) but does prevent second moves (p75).
* Camps can be deployed further in than 10MU if behind field fortifications (which can be 15 MU in if in the central third).

[babyshark]

MikeK's summary looks to be spot on, but for one thing. Once a camp is looted it is removed from the table. See p.107.

Marc

[SirGarnet]

Thanks, I missed it - corrected.

[sagji]

I think you are free to move off untill the camp is sacked - i.e. I don't think you are looting the camp before then.
If you are moved out of contact with the unsacked camp for any reason you are not in contact with it, and don't get a roll to sack it, and don't start looting it if it is sacked.

If you are in contact with the camp when it is sacked you are looting untill you pass the CMT in a subsequent JAP. While looting you can't declare a charge, interception, or make a normal move. You can charge without orders, evade, conform, feed extra bases in, reform, and be shifted to make room.
If you move out of contact with the sacked camp for any reason you are still looting and still restricted in what you can do, but still roll to a CMT to stop looting.

If you contact an unfortified camp you immediatly stop as you are now looting it.
If you contact a fortified camp you can continue moveing as you are not yet looting it.