Bias

[OldFocker]

I found it odd that it takes five ME109G to take down one Mk1 Spitfire. Yup, in Sea Lion 2 when playing Axis each ME109 will account for just two Spitfires so I have to put 5 onto 1! This is ridiculous. Yet when I played the Allies, guess what? When my Mk1s were attacked by the ME109Gs they accounted for 4 at a time. I've seen bias in a lot of scenarios and now I see artificial player difficulty at work too. Also, in that scenario whoever conceived it would seem to have little idea of what it takes to launch and succeed at a seaborne invasion. Here the invader has fewer fighting ships, fewer fighter aircraft, and its gliders all but soon wiped out because they're present at the outset (instead of being called in at the opportune time). There are too few landing craft and they are easily pickings. If you're launcing an invasion force you need better odds than 1-to-1!

This ratio seems to occur most of the time in other scenarios. I realise this is a GAME but how about a modicum of realism? In particular I am wondering why a defensive force is easily lured out of its position to be destroyed piecemeal. For instance, with the Axis attacking a Soviet defence all you need do is advance your heavy tanks and then place one sacrificial armoured car out front. The Soviet tanks rush out to destroy it, and on my next turn I put several heavy tanks onto them and wipe them out. This tactic (or should I say flaw) works all the time, so as an attacker you can literally weed out the heavy stuff to outnumber it, thus essentially leaving only ATs, ACs and infantry in defence. You then simply advance your tanks and infantry backed up by artillery and it's soon game over.

[PoorOldSpike]

I found it odd that it takes five ME109G to take down one Mk1 Spitfire. Yup, in Sea Lion 2 when playing Axis each ME109 will account for just two Spitfires so I have to put 5 onto 1! This is ridiculous..

I'm a test nut so I jumped at the chance to test it out in the Editor and I found that the 109G's bust the Spit 1's derrieres in every test!
I can only assume the planes in Sea Lion 2 have been somehow tweaked by the scen designer.
(Where is SL2 anyway? I can't find it and I'd like to open it up to dissect it.)
Below is my test set up, 5 machines on each side exchanging broadsides at the plane facing them (top pic), and after about half a dozen rounds of combat the Spits had been reduced to just 3 (bottom pic), and they got toasted too in the next couple of rounds. The 109's took some knocks but none were shot down.
On paper, they look pretty evenly-matched, the Spits have the better firepower and the 109's have the best defence strength, but what swung it jerries way was his better initiative rating which meant he usually fired first-

[PoorOldSpike]

..with the Axis attacking a Soviet defence all you need do is advance your heavy tanks and then place one sacrificial armoured car out front. The Soviet tanks rush out to destroy it, and on my next turn I put several heavy tanks onto them and wipe them out.This tactic (or should I say flaw) works all the time..

Yes I've been playing comp games for 35 years and I haven't yet found a game with good intelligent AI, it's okay for practising against, but for a real challenge you need human opponents.
"There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter"- Ernest Hemingway
I've put in 2000 hours on the Armed Assault multiplayer servers and played over 1500 PBEM games of Combat Mission so far, but as I'm a relative newcomer to Pz Corps I haven't yet played it against humans.

[OldFocker]

I'm a test nut so I jumped at the chance to test it out in the Editor and I found that the 109G's bust the Spit 1's derrieres in every test!
I can only assume the planes in Sea Lion 2 have been somehow tweaked by the scen designer. (Where is SL2 anyway? I can't find it and I'd like to open it up to dissect it.)

Thanks for a detailed reply. I'm running PC Gold edition and on launch I need only select New Game on the main page and then 'Scenario'. Sea Lion 2 is one of many that appears in the selection box. I think many of the scenarios are biased in one way or another, but this particular one in terms of the numbers in the invasion force is plain silly.

[PoorOldSpike]

I'm running PC Gold edition and on launch I need only select New Game on the main page and then 'Scenario'. Sea Lion 2 is one of many that appears in the selection box..

It's called 'Sea Lion 42' in my Gold so I hope we're talking about the same scen..
I just started 42 and pitted a Spit I and 109G against each other, and the 109G won.
Here's a screenshot after several rounds of combat near Dover, the Spit I is about to get shot down next round, so I can't figure out why you're having a hard time shooting down Spits.
I ran the test at 'Colonel' level, so check that you're not playing on a harder level or something.
Also I'm puzzled because you said in your original post that it takes you "5x109G's to shoot down one Spit I", but there are only 2x 109G's in the game, so where are you getting the other 3 from?
You'd better check we're talking about the same scen..
PS- For the record, airpower in the scen is
Britain- 1x Spit I, 2x Spit II, 1x Spit IX
Germany- 3x 109E, 3x 109F, 2x 109G
Welcome to the Sherlock Holmes world of hardcore testing..

[OldFocker]

Yes, it's Sea Lion 42. I found the standard scenario so pointless that I made a few necessary changes, which included more Axis airpower and more landing craft with troops and tanks. During play I purchased 88s on the French coast as there was no AA there at all. I've noted in a lot of games how the Axis has hardly any AA guns. It seems this is to give the Allies free rein over the battlefield! But in Sea Lion my 109s had to gang up 5-1 to shoot down a Mk1 Spitfire. This is on Colonel level with the Chess comabat option selected. Out of interest, have you played the standard scenario as Axis and won?

[PoorOldSpike]

Yes, it's Sea Lion 42. I found the standard scenario so pointless that I made a few necessary changes....This is on Colonel level with the Chess comabat option selected. Out of interest, have you played the standard scenario as Axis and won?

Aha, if you've made a "few necessary changes" to the stock Sea Lion 42 and use chess combat, we're not singing from the same song sheet!
I'm going to have a crack at the stock scenario later tonight as Colonel with standard dice combat and no supply (I've never played SL42 before) and will let you know how I get on..

[proline]

This is on Colonel level with the Chess comabat option selected

The game is not designed or balanced for chess, rather it was designed to include a random initiative modifier. That randomness gives the game more fun and depth, however chess mode had to be added as some people would cry and lose control of their emotions if they got a bad roll, rather than putting on their general pants and figuring out how to deal with it.

In your case, you've most certainly exposed one of many flaws in the chess experience. Namely that the spitfires have more initiative than your fighters. Initiative is a combination of the unit's inherent initiative, experience stars, AND the RADAR bonus. Because the spits have more initiative than you, they shoot first and decimate your fighters who in turn never get a chance to do any damage. In the normal game, you would get a good initiative roll during your first couple attacks and get the upper hand, whereas in chess mode the spits just keep blasting away.

In real life, there were no uber pilots that could win 100% of the time- even the best pilot could have some bad luck. Turn chess off, learn to accept and deal with bad luck, and you'll have so much more fun playing the game as designed.

[huckc]

This is on Colonel level with the Chess comabat option selected

The game is not designed or balanced for chess, rather it was designed to include a random initiative modifier. That randomness gives the game more fun and depth, however chess mode had to be added as some people would cry and lose control of their emotions if they got a bad roll, rather than putting on their general pants and figuring out how to deal with it.

In your case, you've most certainly exposed one of many flaws in the chess experience. Namely that the spitfires have more initiative than your fighters. Initiative is a combination of the unit's inherent initiative, experience stars, AND the RADAR bonus. Because the spits have more initiative than you, they shoot first and decimate your fighters who in turn never get a chance to do any damage. In the normal game, you would get a good initiative roll during your first couple attacks and get the upper hand, whereas in chess mode the spits just keep blasting away.

In real life, there were no uber pilots that could win 100% of the time- even the best pilot could have some bad luck. Turn chess off, learn to accept and deal with bad luck, and you'll have so much more fun playing the game as designed.

Not sure which chess mode you're referring to, but limited dice chess still has randomness with plenty of bad rolls including rugged defenses. I'd like to see a GC playthrough on Manstein played on the defaut random without reloads, where those obscenely bad rolls will destroy core units frequently despite good tactics.

Seems like the game, if anything, is more balanced for limited dice chess unless save-scumming.

Also those fighter units don't represent literally one on one engagements, but a battalion of aircraft making the full randomness even more absurd unless you want to tell me all hundred pilots are having a bad day.

[OldFocker]

Turn chess off, learn to accept and deal with bad luck, and you'll have so much more fun playing the game as designed.

I understand fully how random the game can be when, from one crazy experience, a BA-64 drove up and hammered my Tiger I scoring 5-to-1. Now that IS ridiculous, and I am not exaggerating to make a case. It was so memorably silly. This wasn't entirely an isolated example either, which is why I changed to Chess mode. I am still trying to fathom how a rule set has a 7.62mm armed light armoured car knock out five Tigers. As I've said before, I appreciate it's a game but come on! That kind of randomness is just Grrr!!!

[PoorOldSpike]

Okay I just finished Sea lion 42 (Colonel level, standard dice, supply OFF) playing the German side and LOST because I didn't capture all 8 objectives (sniffle), I could only manage 5.
This endgame screenshot shows the limit of my advance (red line).
I spent heavily on buying 5 extra Me109's and 4 extra Stukas, and although I swept the RAF from the skies by about one-third the way through the game, I hadn't got enough points left to buy a decent armoured spearhead, and my advance ground to a halt after capturing the objectives in London in the last couple of turns, I had no chance of reaching the remaining 3 objs to the north of the map.
(PS- the square buildings are RAF radar stations)




Hopefully the Fuhrer will settle for just having London.
Below- A 1960's film, it was on youtube last time I looked-

[OldFocker]

Well done on your invasion! I achieved about the same on the standard scenario, although one time I managed to capture parts in the north after dropping paras in the west (only lost one of their three transports to the RAF). They were supported by a couple of units I managed to land nearby once I'd dispatched the British ships in the area. Even so, I have never found the Axis land invasion force that survives the battering by planes and ships sufficient to mount an effective thrust into enemy held positions. I note like me you had to buy extra fighters. I also found that purchasing a couple of 88 AAs on the French coast worthwhile.

Something else of note - I sneakily thought about purchasing armoured units on French soil with Prestige but then saw no means of acquiring transport for them to cross the Channel. If one could do this it could change things quite a bit!

[PoorOldSpike]

Well done on your invasion! I achieved about the same on the standard scenario.....I sneakily thought about purchasing armoured units on French soil with Prestige but then saw no means of acquiring transport for them to cross the Channel. If one could do this it could change things quite a bit!

I thought that too at first, but then I found out by accident that you CAN buy armour in France and ship it over to England in a landing craft..
(If you can't buy anything because there are no free slots, you can either wait til something gets killed to free up a slot, or you can disband something yourself (key 'D') to free up a slot)
Here are a couple of test screenshots to demonstrate buying new units-

I bought this PzIV and placed it in Calais, then next turn I clicked the Landing craft icon on the right and shipped it to England-



More good news!- A couple of turns after you've captured cities in England you can place tanks or anything else straight into those deployment zones near them on English soil without having to ship them across the Channel..

[turn4441]

Why can't you transport units from France? There are 40 naval transports available at the start of the scenario with 18 of them initially unused and available to take on any units you deploy in France. You just need to have your unit in a port to embark on a transport.

As for dice chess, it is kind of comforting to know that what you plan is what you will get and you will never take a large unexpected loss, albeit with an occasional minor discrepancy, but after trying it, I quickly found it boring and went back to teeth-gnashing normal random. To each his own, but I can't imagine 'Chess' mode to be at all enjoyable or exciting.

I've only played that scenario once and it's been a couple of years so I don't remember exactly how I did it (could generate a replay from the last turn save) but I achieved a DV on turn 15 (last chance) at colonel level and normal dice. I expected it would be harder than the Sea Lion '40 scenario, but recall it seeming easier. However, I did play both as part of the campaign and not as stand-alone scenarios so I would have had more heroes available. Haven't replayed it since I moved up to higher difficulty levels. Final turn screenshot below.

[PoorOldSpike]

...As for dice chess....I quickly found it boring and went back to teeth-gnashing normal random. To each his own, but I can't imagine 'Chess' mode to be at all enjoyable or exciting.

My sentiments exactly, the more randomness the merrier because it means every game will be fresh and different because of the unpredictability factor, just like real life..
"No plan survives contact with the enemy"- Erwin Rommel
What sage words of wisdom can you offer us grasshopper?-

[proline]

Turn chess off, learn to accept and deal with bad luck, and you'll have so much more fun playing the game as designed.

I understand fully how random the game can be when, from one crazy experience, a BA-64 drove up and hammered my Tiger I scoring 5-to-1. Now that IS ridiculous, and I am not exaggerating to make a case. It was so memorably silly. This wasn't entirely an isolated example either, which is why I changed to Chess mode. I am still trying to fathom how a rule set has a 7.62mm armed light armoured car knock out five Tigers. As I've said before, I appreciate it's a game but come on! That kind of randomness is just Grrr!!!

The scenario you describe is a failure of your imagination, not the randomness of the game. It is entirely possible those 5 Tigers, which were notoriously hard to maintain, happened to be broken down at the moment the BA-64 drove by requiring their crews to scuttle them. The BA-64, having the initiative, may also have carried out an ambush by constructing a tank trap or attacking at close range.

If you imagine PzC battles as being simply one unit shooting at the other one across an empty field a lot of things won't make sense and the game will be a lot less fun.

[proline]

Not sure which chess mode you're referring to, but limited dice chess still has randomness with plenty of bad rolls including rugged defenses.

Dice Chess allows only a 20% deviation from predicted unless rugged defense, while Chess, which is what this guy says he plays, allows none. Both profoundly affect the gameplay in a negative way. You could, for example, allow your Tigers in 1943 to be encircled behind enemy lines, knowing that there isn't even a chance that anything will touch them. There is far less need to support your attacking units, as you know they will not take an unexpected loss.

Also those fighter units don't represent literally one on one engagements, but a battalion of aircraft making the full randomness even more absurd unless you want to tell me all hundred pilots are having a bad day.

At one point during the Marianas Turkey Shoot the Americans had killed nearly 60 Japanese war planes with no losses. Yes, the Americans were better, but not to that extreme degree. The Japanese suffered the historical equivalent of a bad initiative roll- they sent their aircraft to the wrong location and they were later ambushed while landing. The Japanese commanders had to deal with the emotion that comes with the loss of a favorite unit, they couldn't just 'turn down randomness'. Sometimes a hundred pilots have a bad day.

[OldFocker]

The scenario you describe is a failure of your imagination, not the randomness of the game.

Ah, you again. I've a great capacity for imagination thank you. What you seem to be suggesting is we consider every conceivable possibility on the field of battle to account for any inexplicable turn of events, good or bad. No, the game is not that sophisticated. Perhaps your imagination has taken leave of its senses!

Randomness in the game causes highs and lows, plain and simple, but if someone wants to account for these as tank crews having a tea break, checking out the local female talent or scuttling their machines they're entitled.

[OldFocker]

[quote="turn4441"]Why can't you transport units from France? There are 40 naval transports available at the start of the scenario with 18 of them initially unused and available to take on any units you deploy in France. You just need to have your unit in a port to embark on a transport.[quote]

Okay, thanks. The whereabouts of these 18 unused naval transports isn't clear and only realised on clicking Embark/Disembark (when on the face of there's no reason to do so). Clicking it also indicates there is a train somewhere (?). As a ready-made scenario I evidently made the mistake in thinking that what you see is what you get as an attack force, as with other scenarios (plus Prestige purchases). I think it would be helpful to know at the outset that the invasion force you're given isn't complete!

[proline]

Randomness in the game causes highs and lows, plain and simple, but if someone wants to account for these as tank crews having a tea break, checking out the local female talent or scuttling their machines they're entitled.

Well, I'll leave it at this- to come back to your question, it most certainly does NOT take 5 Bf109s to take out a spit. The problem is either with your skills- e.g. using inexperienced fighters, not being aware of radar, etc- or with your choice to play the game in a custom mode (chess) that it wasn't balanced for.