"240 BC Grand Campaign"

[Lysimachos]

In order to clearly show the effect of victories and defeats in every kind of attacks I have updated the short list of action's costs and benefits.
Here is the template, now truly comprehensive of any case.



victory in nation vs nation battles as attacker ## +2 VP / +2 VP if province conquered / +1 stability pt. / +30t
defeat in nation vs nation battles as attacker ## -1 stability pt. / -30t

victory in nation vs nation battles as defender ## +2VP / +1 stability pt. / +30t
defeat in nation vs nation battles as defender ## -1 stability pt. / -30t / province lost to the other nation (save the effects of fortifications)

victory in nation vs independent provinces battles as attacker ## +2 VP / +2 VP if province conquered / +1 stability pt. / +30t
defeat in nation vs independent provinces battles as attacker ## -1 stability pt. / -30t

victory in nations vs independent provinces battles as defender ## province remains independent
defeat in nations vs independent provinces battles as defender ## province conquered by the attacker

victory in independent or external provinces vs nation battles as attacker ## province becomes independent
defeat in independent or external provinces vs nation battles as attacker ## province remains in the ownership of the other player

victory in independent or external provinces vs nation battles as defender ## province remains in the ownership of the other player
defeat in independent or external provinces vs nation battles as defender ## -1 stability pt. / -30t / province becomes independent (save the effects of fortifications)

[devoncop]

Ptolemy regretfully informs his subjects that war taxes will be raised (+70 Talents) to rebuild the battered forces of the Royal Army.

The newly raised forces move immediately into Aug from Mrm....Honour must be restored....

[vakarr]

Meanwhile, in Galatia, both sides are jockeying for position and the skirmishing has begun but the Pontic army is hopeful as the Med hilly terrain has conjured up some terrific steep and rocky hills in the Pontic deployment area that do not suit superior warbands at all.

In Media Atropane, the sandy battlefield is restricted by a large lake and mountains and is dominated by a deep stream that runs across the entire frontage of the armies. Both armies have large forces of infantry rabble and horse archers but the Parthians have the better heavy cavalry. The Parthians fell into an Atropene trap and after several turns, the Parthian right flank has been thrown back completely and Parthian losses have reached 20% compared to near zero for the Atropene forces. However now the skirmishing is over, the Parthian cataphracts are making their weight felt, the Atropane right flank is in disarray, and the battle remains very much in the balance as it seems that the Atropenes have nothing that can stop the rampaging cataphracts.

[Lysimachos]

In Media Atropane, the sandy battlefield is restricted by a large lake and mountains and is dominated by a deep stream that runs across the entire frontage of the armies. Both armies have large forces of infantry rabble and horse archers but the Parthians have the better heavy cavalry. The Parthians fell into an Atropene trap and after several turns, the Parthian right flank has been thrown back completely and Parthian losses have reached 20% compared to near zero for the Atropene forces. However now the skirmishing is over, the Parthian cataphracts are making their weight felt, the Atropane right flank is in disarray, and the battle remains very much in the balance as it seems that the Atropenes have nothing that can stop the rampaging cataphracts.

I think you're referring to the Parthian attack form Dahaea to Hyrcania ...

[Lysimachos]

The newly raised forces move immediately into Aug from Mrm....Honour must be restored....

76mm will take command of the Libyan forces in Augila

[Lysimachos]

Tha Mauryan Emperor fortifies Taxila (Txl) and inspires the people of Gedrosia to attack (independently) the Seleucid province of Carmania.
The challenge is posted for Aryaman with the password:
peaceandlove

[76mm]

I need a rules clarification please: My opponent in Aetolia is running to put his entire hoplite force into a large body of woods. That's fine, he's entitled to run away if he thinks he is outclassed.

But that said, surely there must be some cost for him doing so--for instance if the enemy army simply hid in the woods, I could simply take the province by taking the cities. In short, I don't think that hiding in the woods should be an "I win" button, there has to be some cost, or at least risk. I also don't really want to play out a full game where one side is hiding in the woods.

[devoncop]

Strange decision tbh as Hoplites are going to be badly disordered in woods as Heavy Foot so should be easy pickings.....!

[Lysimachos]

I need a rules clarification please: My opponent in Aetolia is running to put his entire hoplite force into a large body of woods. That's fine, he's entitled to run away if he thinks he is outclassed.

But that said, surely there must be some cost for him doing so--for instance if the enemy army simply hid in the woods, I could simply take the province by taking the cities. In short, I don't think that hiding in the woods should be an "I win" button, there has to be some cost, or at least risk. I also don't really want to play out a full game where one side is hiding in the woods.

Sorry 76mm but every commander has the right to choose the tactic he finds better suited to his army, as it always happens in every tournament.
In order to take the province you have to win the battle.
In the case you shouldn't like to chase your opponent in the woods, you may ask him for a draw in order to close immediately the match without any inconvenience except the loss of 60t.

[Lysimachos]

The Indian caravan sent to Paropamisade has surrendered to the mountaneers of that region ...

Ashoka the Great, after mourning the loss of so many wise and good men but desiring anyway to spread the teachings of the Buddha, has sent another expeditions of gifts and garlands, this time from Sattagidia to Arachosia.

The Arachosian people, under the command of Aryaman, is requested to accept them with goodwill and compassion.
Password: friendship

[Varity]

I need a rules clarification please: My opponent in Aetolia is running to put his entire hoplite force into a large body of woods. That's fine, he's entitled to run away if he thinks he is outclassed.

But that said, surely there must be some cost for him doing so--for instance if the enemy army simply hid in the woods, I could simply take the province by taking the cities. In short, I don't think that hiding in the woods should be an "I win" button, there has to be some cost, or at least risk. I also don't really want to play out a full game where one side is hiding in the woods.

Sorry 76mm but every commander has the right to choose the tactic he finds better suited to his army, as it always happens in every tournament.
In order to take the province you have to win the battle.
In the case you shouldn't like to chase your opponent in the woods, you may ask him for a draw in order to close immediately the match without any inconvenience except the loss of 60t.

I'd be willing to accept a draw on these terms and not count this as battle served as independent province commander.

[76mm]

Sorry 76mm but every commander has the right to choose the tactic he finds better suited to his army, as it always happens in every tournament.
In order to take the province you have to win the battle.

OK, but this seems to reward very gamey tactics; for instance it I totally surround the troops in the woods (or on a hill, whatever), it seems like it should not be a draw. Moreover, why should an army which cannot or will not defend a province be considered to have conducted a successful defense?

[76mm]

Strange decision tbh as Hoplites are going to be badly disordered in woods as Heavy Foot so should be easy pickings.....!

No, not really, because of course he has some light and medium troops as well, which he can use to shelter the heavy foot. I might be able to defeat them eventually hiding in the woods, but time constraints will probably make this impossible in any FOG battle. And of course on a wooded map if we declare a draw chances are very high that he could just repeat this next game.

Sorry, but this is kind of a ridiculous campaign mechanic--it basically makes this province unbeatable when in fact it was nothing of the sort.

[Varity]

The game (and this campaign) does not have the strategic layer to address these nuanced battle results you're describing, so one just has to accept as stroke of fate the meeting of the two armies in any particular battleground and the unexplained need for a decisive battle there. An abstraction, like the checkerboard grid and the point systems.

If you consider any defense placed in terrain like woods or hill as illegitimate, the game would lose a lot of depth. I agree that there might be abuses of the system that should be disallowed: for instance here I could have deployed on the far side of the uncrossable river, making my units unreachable.

I think the fact that a draw favours the defender is offset by the freedom of the choice the attacker has. You might have selected a more suitable force composition and a different scenario type, advance guard for instance.

[76mm]

I agree that there might be abuses of the system that should be disallowed: for instance here I could have deployed on the far side of the uncrossable river, making my units unreachable.

OK, but this situation is not very different from the uncrossable river that you cite--on turn 7 the first of my troops have reached the front edge of the woods; the game will well more than half over by the time I reach the deeper part of the woods, at which point fighting can start. You could also argue that in an uncrossable river scenario, I could have place all of my troops on the same side of the river as you but did not, so that should be a legitimate battle as well, right?

I think the fact that a draw favours the defender is offset by the freedom of the choice the attacker has. You might have selected a more suitable force composition and a different scenario type, advance guard for instance.

What choices, other than not invading wooded provinces? More suitable force composition? I maxed out on medium and light foot...not sure what else I could have done there... I didn't think about choosing a different scenario type, but having reviewed the options I don't see what good it would have done, in all scenario types other than maybe baggage escort you could have hidden your forces in the same way?

Anyway, It is what it is, but think this is a poor campaign mechanic--it makes it pretty much pointless to invade wooded provinces and for very tedious FOG gameplay. Moreover, calling a draw and replaying the battle would more than likely just have the same result, ad infinitum. Why bother? The good news is that there are not many wooded provinces, and I certainly won't bother invading any more of them.

Here is a screen shot:

[Lysimachos]

Having seen the screenshot I would like to understand if the defending army is simply running off the field in order to gain much time as possible or if it is sheltering in the woods waiting the attack of the other host.
In the first case it seems 76mm has all the time to catch and slaughter them, being only at the 4th turn.
In the second I reaffirm that is a valid choice of the general to take cover in the woods and fight there.
If 76mm assume that this puts his army in disadvantage, it is also to be said that the contrary would upset the defender's chances of victory in the same way.
And it isn't correct, on a strategical level, to assume that refusing to give battle would involve the loss of the city.
If the attacking army would then lay siege to it, then the undefeated defender's army would come out of the woods trapping the attacker host between two fires, the defenders in the city and the marching army.

[devoncop]

A successful attack is reported where after a 61% to 50% bloodfest Aryamans Seleucids overcame stubborn Pergamene resistance.

Province captured. Congratulations and an enjoyable encounter !

[Aryaman]

Yes, the Seleucid army in the end overcome the stubborn resistance of the Pergamene in a battle with many alternatives. First my right flank rash attack ended in complete desaster but in the center, after long skirmishing, the Pergamene battleline slowly collapsed, not without some last moment comebacks. It was a very disputed and enjoyable battle, and now that the Mysian province is under my rule I take the chance to attack Bythinnia

[Aryaman]

Challenge posted for Vakarr, password tertia

[vakarr]

Challenge posted for Vakarr, password tertia

Challenge accepted but that means I'm fighting four battles, it might take a while...